Trent

Synopsis: America = bad White Phosphorous = Napalm = Illegal Any Dead Iraqi = Innocent Victim Editing comes from the Michael Moore school of "mockumentaries". Oh, hello again!

So you'd be in favor of a "MinorsWhoGotAbortions.org" website where parents could query based on social security numbers or something to see if little Jane had an abortion. That wouldn't be forcing the info on them, and it would be private unless the parents cared to look. I don't think minors should be able to undergo any optional medical treatments without parental knowledge at least. What a shitty argument to have. Really. I'll concede here and say that the real world is whatever you say it is, Bill. I vote for Pangea as being the real world though. Well, educate me then. What does it take to fire a teacher with tenure? Does tenure mean they stop getting evaluated regularly? Does tenure mean, short of molestation or gross misconduct, they won't get fired? If so, why do they need tenure at all? If it is just means that they "made it" past 2 years... why not just call it a "raise"? Oh, hello again!

I understand the abortion proposition had wording problems... according to another poster. If that's the case, there's one of those exceptions I was talking about. I still think that parents should know, and the state should not facilitate hiding medical issues like this. Like you said, it's NOT up to the government to parent... including deciding what parents should or should not know. Actually, we do live in the REAL WORLD. We're a part of this world as much as animals, and the changes we've made have changed the REAL WORLD. But you were just saying that, right? Teachers should get tenure to keep them around. But giving someone an almost permanent job after 2 years is crazy in almost any workplace. What would have been wrong with increasing pay until a 5yr mark before deciding that they were worth having permanently? Having tenure AT ALL would still be a special consideration, which is deserved by some teachers who showed a real commitment. The government decides many other areas require full-disclosure when it involves investing and donations. Why should a union be any different. The real question is, Why would YOU want to be a part of a union that DIDN'T tell you how they were spending YOUR money? Oh, hello again!

I haven't been to church in over a decade, so I didn't get any of that business. I have a feeling that my church (that I used to go to) wouldn't have said anything about it. It never seemed like they did before anyway. But I DO listen to the radio, watch the news, and see billboards. Almost everything I saw was anti-prop2. I got no phone calls, though... they can't solicit on my cellphone yet! Oh, hello again!

Really? How often did that happen? I guess parents who give a shit will have to start giving their girls a monthly EPT along with their drug tests. Oh, hello again!

Well, TX just voted FOR prop 2, banning gay marriage through constitutional amendment. I heard WAY more anti-prop2 campaigning than pro. Maybe I didn't listen enough. Sounds like it just wasn't meant to be. So you're saying that some of those amendments in CA were voted down because of no real logic... just mob mentality? And you neighbors do it with each other, smoking a joint and waving peace signs! Oh, hello again!

If the issues are as simple as stated on the voting site, the fact that some of these didn't pass is retarded. But then, Cali likes to be the most contrarian place on earth I think. 73 - Requires teenager's parents to be notified before an abortion. - What's the problem with this? Or is it going to be against the law to educate your kids on sex AND have a right to know what your dependents are doing when their health is at risk? 74 - Requires more years of service before CA teachers get tenure. - It'd be nice if the rest of the world worked in places that COULDN'T fire them after 2 years. I guess asking schools to live in the "real world" is too much. 75 - Prohibits unions from political lobbying with union dues unless they get a yearly signed permission statement from the people in their union. Unions are membership organizations, what is the problem with ensuring that the membership is okay with the organization donating money to political figures? Seems like a no brainer there, but hey... CA. Oh, hello again!

Maybe these chumps just couldn't afford a ticket to Iraq. They lived in Australia, so they chose to wreak violence there. It seems terrorists are fond of shitting where they eat no matter where they are. Good for the Aussie police, though! Oh, hello again!

Yeah, I forgot to put that in my last post. No matter what happens I think you'll see some extreme reaction in the next elections. From the side of the average French person, I think you'll see increased support for the FN, which is strongly anti-immigrant. On the other side, you might see a government more prone to appease the immigrant population since people don't want to have more riots. My feeling is that it'll swing to the FN's side a lot more since they were already pretty powerful there anyway. Oh, hello again!

I forgot to respond to this one.... That's true as from what I've heard too... unfortunately, people in a situation like this will shop around until they hear the voice they agree with. You may have 100 clerics preaching calm, but one radical fuckwad will most likely get the people's attention since, clearly, they're not ready to stop the violence. But let's hope that doesn't happen. Oh, hello again!

How ya been, Nac! Long time, huh? Just one minor point... the fact that someone in their government is being blasted for calling people "scum" who are assaulting firefighters, EMTs, setting fires, attacking citizens, and being overall retards... confounds me. I suppose he should have just called them "disaffected youth from whom we could expect no less since it is all our fault anyway". The people doing the harm here ARE scum. I don't care what their reasons are, they have destroyed their cause by becoming violent. I also have the feeling he may have used the word "racaille", which really means "riffraff". When I was in France, it was kind of a badge of honor to some of my friends that they were "racaille". I haven't seen the actual quote in french, but either way... these fuckers who are torching and destroying their OWN shit, in my opinion... are scum. (for the terminally ignorant people here... that does not mean I think all french of n.african descent are scum) Oh, hello again!

The important thing is that if these riots aren't stopped soon, these "poor, misguided youths of non-specific descent and religion" may actually start to be really organized by agitators who DO want it to be a muslims vs. france thing. Knowing people from these areas, lots of them aren't really religious at all... but if they keep raging on and the mob mentality grows... it seems it would be possible to see them picking up the "in the name of Allah" motivation if properly prodded by some morally and ethically bankrupt extremist leaders in their communities. Oh, hello again!

Yep, I think it is a BIG part of it. We all know that France has had really lax immigration policy for N. Africa and the Middle East. That was nice of them, but they didn't plan for what it'd do to their country. Now you have a HUGE number of people with little money and/or education living in a country that ostensibly is supposed to take care of those with no jobs (socialism). From my experiences there, the suburbanites are kinda looked down on due to a few things... culture, origin, education, and attitudes. There just wasn't enough tolerance or jobs to put everyone to work to have them acheive this "better life" that they thought they'd find in France. Is that the system's fault? Largely, but not all. I see these kids demanding jobs and respect when they have pretty much nothing to offer anyone. They've subsisted off of a welfare state for so long, unless something is given to them... they almost have no way of getting anything. I find it kinda stupid to take this shit out on the government though... if I moved to a country hoping for a better life... could I honestly and righteously blame the country when I couldn't get a job because I didn't bother to learn anything in the schools they gave me, didn't bother to speak their language properly, and isolated myself within a group of people like me and refused to integrate in the least? That's like sending an application to a company that you're not qualified to work for, then throwing a tantrum when they don't hire you. I could explain further, but I don't want to bother until people start bashing me for what I've already said. Now, on the subject of helping France if they asked for it... I would like to think I live in a country that would help without question when asked. Even if France has been somewhat anti-American for a while now, it is our duty to help even nominal allies when asked. For those that'd rather us say FUCK YOU, wouldn't it be a better "fuck you" to help them without question and ask for nothing in return? No matter how shitty France has been to us, I don't think they deserve to have their country torn to pieces because they have a large population of people that are acting like shitheads. But even I could see something like that coming from living there for 1/2 a year. I hope my friends are safe and that they get this settled without giving even more of their country away in the process. Oh, hello again!

Without a doubt! Oh, hello again!

Then we're back to the problem of not having elected officials who can keep their mouths shut. It just seems that you're against any covert security actions, especially prisons. I see the necessity for some of this stuff. Like I said in 2 posts... I guess we just will disagree. Oh, hello again!

... For having some of the most lenient immigration policies for N. African and the Middle East. The suburban arab and african youth in France have been on the verge of something like this since I was there in 1998 and 2000. The general population doesn't really like them, the government tries to support them under the social policies, and their numbers are growing incredibly fast. Best of luck to France in solving this social problem. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051106/ap_on_re_eu/france_rioting It seems that anytime you have a bunch of morons rioting because "the man" is sticking it to them, they end up burning mostly their own shit. Having friends from some of those areas... I hope it'll work out soon, and I wish they could own guns! Oh, hello again!

Like I said, not the entire intelligence committee, but the top officials in it were aware according to the 2nd page of the article, 2nd to last paragraph. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/01/AR2005110101644_2.html Oh, hello again!

If you read the article that DownwardSpiral posted, you will see that there are indeed senate intelligence committee members who DO have some oversight into these secret camps, as do some DOJ lawyers, and Whitehouse lawyers. It says that due to the nature of the camps and importance of security only the highest ranking senators are kept up-to-date on them. Forgive me, I thought we had both read the article and that you thought that the limited group who does know what's up, wasn't good enough. That's why I guessed that only a full committee vote or entire senate vote would be more along the lines of what you'd want to see. If you haven't read that article, it's pretty decent in explaining the camps as far as the author can. Oh, hello again!

After careful conisderation of your proposal for debate RE: Boobies, I have concluded I am FOR them. Oh, hello again!

We'll just have to disagree here. I like to put my faith in that, USUALLY we are, or try to be the good guys. I also see a need for secrecy on occasion. It would seem that you'd rather have a general vote on every operation run by any agency. I don't think that's a good idea, or reasonable. Like I said, we'll just disagree. Oh, hello again!

Don't decide what I think for me, thanks. I've made no decisions in these posts. I've just stated some possibilities that might have been better than just giving the guy walking papers. It sounds more to me, based on Botellines post, like he and other people in Spain have already decided this guy's guilt so I responded accordingly. I'll post this part in the other thread too, to make sure you see it: We will just have to disagree on this one. Oh, hello again!

Back to the point that the article that started this post makes no mention of torture in secret prisons. Then we started talking about what torture really was... which led some of us to say that what the media presents as torture (intimidation, sleep dep, drug use) really isn't. So until we have wholesale slaughter of people in secret prisons because they're jewish, or arabs, or capitalists... I find it pretty offensive to compare the US to Soviet Russia because of our prisons. So none of the reasons I listed in previous posts would be a good reason to have a secret prison? Sometimes we just have to disagree, as usual! Oh, hello again!

Apparently they don't legally detain them either! I'm not trying to point out hypocrisy, just trying to illustrate that many people here feel the same about islamic terrorists as he does about the basques. Just a small attempt in hopes that it might provide some insight and similarities since he usually disagrees with what the US does. And how nice would it be if they DID detain this guy secretly and interrogate him, resulting in a complete picture of the ETA's operations and membership, THEN putting him on trial after everyone else is arrested? He'd still get his day in court AND they'd deal a deadly blow to the ETA. .... OR they could let him out on bail indefinitely so he can make arrangements to hide evidence and assets so that the authorities would never get to them and maybe even avoid getting himself convicted. Oh, hello again!

Oh, there are the Security and Intelligence Comittees, but even they can't know everything since, as I said before, politicians can't keep their mouths shut. They are still accountable for the amount of slack they give to the agencies and for trusting them to do the right things. Surely you can understand a need for completely "black" operations, can't you? Oh, hello again!

Just replace "Basque Leader" with "al quaida leader/fundraiser/supporter" and maybe you will begin to understand how some Americans feel about our current situation... especially not feeling sympathy for the "innocent" peace-lovers in Guantanamo. Remember, this Otegi guy hasn't been convicted of being a terrorist leader in Spain yet. So shouldn't you assume he's innocent? I found this completely ridiculous: If everyone is so sure he's a terrorist party leader, why the hell would they let him run free until the trial?? Oh, hello again!