Trent

As I said... we must give them what they want ASAP!! It is of critical importance that we let non-citizens influence our national policies. Just relax and let it happen, it's the way of the world. Submit, relent, accept! Oh, hello again!

Oh I don't think the sky is falling... but I think it'll be easier to deal with it now while it's in the public eye and before we have 20 million illegals in the country. Oh, hello again!

Then perhaps you should be clear about what you think, Bill. Illegal immigrants: good/bad? Asking people to learn the language, by making it "official" if necessary: good/bad? Failure to integrate into society instead of trying to make it like "home": good/bad? It sounds to me like your position is that nothing bad is going on. None of the issues I brought up actually exist. We'll be fine no matter what happens. If that's what you're saying, and it does sound like it... I disagree. By the way, you see the irony in all these protests today when countries like Mexico have some of the tightest immigration laws around? And we're the assholes for wanting less extreme laws on our books? Oh, hello again!

*sigh*.... Oookay... let 'em all in. It's the only way to progress. You win. The problems that I see don't exist. I've made them all up. Oh, hello again!

Yeah, I misread that. My bad. But now THOSE numbers are kinda weird even... people are claiming that there are 33 million immigrants here and 9 million are illegal... so if those numbers held true from 2000 to 2005... wouldn't it be a little higher on the illegal side? I think people are playing a lot of games with numbers here and inflating/deflating them to fit their agendas. Before you shoot that up... they used the same assumptions on the CIS site to come up with their estimate of illegals. Italians, Czechs, and Germans didn't speak a lot of english at home.... Nope, don't cancel the parades... but it is nice that they were kind enough to integrate and still keep some of their heritage. Exactly... which is why a lot of us want English made the national language... we're trying... but people keep calling us racists... strange. Oh, hello again!

The same, not at all biased, site also says that 1 Million green cards are issued annually. That means the 4.2 million "immigrants" in your stats that aren't considered illegal... are only temporary, or are on some other type of visa. Kinda puts those numbers back into perspective for you. But hey, 3.7 million illegals in 3 months doesn't cause concern... oh no... I wonder if the immigrants in 1910 wanted to be Americans... or if they wanted to make a little part of their own country here. It seems that integration was more a priority for people then. Think that proves your point? Nope, it doesn't seem like integration is AT ALL as important to illegal immigrants. If it is, why are high schools STILL teaching in spanish? Why is everything written in 5 languages? That's your only argument?? Didn't I already have you ignore the question I asked earlier? Are you really going to use one mistake to justify making another one? Are you gonna say that it would have been wrong for the Indians to fight back? Bad analogy. There isn't one. There needs to be. English is the de facto language here. Are you going to argue that too? Oh, hello again!

Again... you misunderstand... or are trying to make my entire point JUST about immigration. It's about INTEGRATION as well. The points about canda et al is about divisiveness caused by 2 different languages and cultures in the same country... sure it CAN happen... but it seems pretty counterproductive. You'll have to read my post in its entirety... not just quote by quote. It is a continuation of the sentence above the line I quoted from you. Sure. Oh, hello again!

I don't have to Google anything... I've been there. I've seen that despite the modernization of late... there is still an identifiable culture that has remained similar for centuries. But, like I said before, the "culture" definition is something we can go back and forth all day. You know what I'm talking about, but you won't agree. What? There's more legal immigrants coming into the country daily than illegal? Again, living near a border... that's either naive or dishonest. Re-read my last post... it doesn't matter WHO is doing it... it happens too often. The trailer parkers aren't sending their money abroad either. You're right, our national anthem should be "a living, breathing song." We shouldn't bother encouraging people to learn the language... let's just translate everything for them to make it better for all of us. I'm seriously starting to think that you're just arguing for the sake of it now. It wouldn't? A study in a state with the population of a large city is conclusive that it wouldn't save us anything? BS. The initial savings would be HUGE nationwide. The ongoing savings of using less printing and less paper (or whatever the medium) would be significant. Monetary benefits aside... it'd surely encourage people to learn the language, which is a good thing. Just because one language is used in government and in official settings... doesn't mean people can't speak another language... that's a horrible argument you're trying to make. Except that it does happen... and the lack of ability of people to actually understand speeches, news, and debates only makes it easier. Don't think it happens... ooookay. But people who don't speak english can't! That's the problem. We're divided by a language barrier in our own country. It's silly to not think it'd be a good thing that people living here should speak english. It also doesn't imply that they should forget their own language. Good. At least you want people to do it right. But to not also want (hope) that they'd integrate instead of isolate themselves seems counterproductive in my opinion. Explain how having isolated groups of people who don't relly integrate into the prevalent society is a good thing. If people want to come here ONLY to work, fine. Get permission, work, go home. If you want to be an American, then go through the process and be proud. There's a BIG difference in these types of people. Oh, hello again!

I went to buy a breakfast burrito this morning... the Mexican restaurant was closed. I DEMAND we open up all the borders and give anyone everything they need so that I don't have to make my own breakfast!! They REALLY showed me! Oh, hello again!

Sorry, as SkyDekker points out... I have no capacity for nuance, you can add sarcasm to that list. But only if you add that you have no capacity for responding to my comment about the indians of South American who haven't changed in centuries... but tend to die out when they do change. How much has Chinese culture really changed? How much has British culture really changed? How much has Middle Eastern nations' cultures changed? Really? Immigrants who come through the right way, work hard, play the game, and integrate DEFINITELY make us stronger. Immigrants who come here illegally to make money, send it home, then pop out a few instant citizens so they don't have to leave... don't. Of course, your argument will probably be that this doesn't happen in any significant numbers. It's not the translation that bothers me, it's the push to make it a legitimate alternative version that is accepted by people. THAT is crap. THAT is actually happening. But it'd be a nice $ saver to not have to teach/vote/call/litigate in foreign languages. It'd also make sure that people could actually understand what is being said, instead of having an activist tell them that Americans are trying to kill/opress/take advantage of them and that they should vote for Kerry to stop it. If you're okay with millions of people being completely ignorant of the common language here... then we can't really talk about it, can we? No, the sky didn't just start to fall and it's not going to fall tomorrow... but why keep going down a path that eventually will lead us to a crisis when we can do something now? ***No, it _is_ a problem. Just as there is a problem with white male criminals from Georgia, or with white male wife-beaters on welfare. Would be silly to generalize that as a problem with all white males. quote] You're right... caucasians in trailer parks deserve more national attention than immigration since they statistically (you're honest, so I'll assume you have stats to back it up) cause just as much problems as illegal immigrants do. Bill, you LIVE in CA, you know what I'm talking about and it seems that you're intentionally being dishonest about it. I guess there's not much we can argue if it's your opinion that everything is okay with the way things are now. Illegals are fine, leave 'em alone, right? And for the last time, when I'm talking about immigration problems, I'm talking about ANY illegal immigrants or ANY immigrants that come here and DON'T make any effort to become a part of America. I'm NOT talking about ALL immigrants. But since you guys have mastered the subtleties of language, I didn't have to say that, did I? Oh, hello again!

Wouldn't that just increase the "us and them" feeling that is already prevalent here? What makes it so hard for you to understand that it ISN'T asking too much for people to make an effort to integrate when they come here? Public schools. And neither IS a good thing in my book... and I told them so. But what can I say to them when it is the government that is offering them these jobs? In fact I told them just this weekend that I think it sucks that they have to teach all but 2 hours in spanish... and they agree. They were hired to be subject specific teachers (math, science), but since they spoke spanish... they were "urged" into these positions. Except that having workers who work for less than the "going" wages averages us all down. Except that having large groups of people NOT paying taxes and putting a strain on infrastruction starts to break that infrastructure over time. Except that millions of dollars flowing out of the country doesn't do much to keep things flowing here. Except that when you can't find work for millions of people crossing weekly... they have to do something and go somewhere... and until they're (if they find it) working, things around that place aren't so great. But you're right... that doesn't help make a shithole... ...BUT GEORGE BUSH DOES!! NOW I see! Thank you! Well, my apologies to you professor, for not understanding your subtleties! Clearly I AM the ignorant racist xenophobe that you subtly imply. But I don't get nuance, so I'm sure that you didn't REALLY try to imply anything of the sort. I'll go back to being ignorant so you can go back to feeling superior. Well, since it "works" in 2 tiny european countries... it must work everywhere! Take a look at the former soviet states... take a look at... canada... ... the basque regions... works great and isn't at all harmful in any way. Oh, hello again!

So you're in the crowd that thinks that there is no real, enduring culture? Did the whole culture change when slaves were freed? Or did people just move along and act the same just without slaves? I mean, if you want to say each event changes the culture... then we could go nuts with that subject. I still think there IS a culture that endures... sure it's changed... but more with the times than with any single event. But I know you'll find a way to slam the idea that an American culture does exist and IS put in jeopardy when the melting pot becomes a mixing bowl... guess we'll just have to roll with the punches until all those filthy countries that have distinct cultures are overrun by "the world" so we can have our true one-world culture. Just seems strange that people who "embrace cultural diversity" don't care that their endgame really is the lack of any diversity whatsoever. But that's longterm stuff... so it isn't important. Really? I bet some S.American indian tribes would prove you wrong. Seems that when they DO start to change they die out. Weird. Then why the outrage at making an official language for the US? Why all the pissing and moaning over "1836"? Why translate the "Star Spangled Banner" into spanish? Why teach school in spanish? It's funny that you guys whine about how insensitive we are and that all these nice immigrants (illegal or legal) who decide that WE should adapt to them and make no efforts to integrate in the slightest bit deserve everything catered to them. You know who REALLY REALLY feels passionately about it... more than any US born person I know?? THE IMMMIGRANTS. Yeah, that's right, the one's that have come here, sacrificed everything, worked hard to stay and DID integrate to make a better life for themselves and their families. They are the FIRST to say that all this catering to immigrants with the language and culturally sensitive crap should be done away with. It's US that are fucking things up by being so afraid to make people DO something to become an American. Learn the language, pay your taxes, apply for residency, all that RIDICULOUS stuff. Here's a quote: "I didn't come to the US to make Houston like Caracas, I came to be a part of Houston and the US." Dang. You got me. I got Mr. Lamm to write that part into his article just to play the "disagree and you prove my point" card. I disagree that my intention was what you assumed. Do you disagree that there are many problems stemming from immigration and people who come here to send money out, pay no taxes, and feel no attachment to the US? That's not a trick question. If you think we're doing just fine, we'll then we must be! Edit: I'm out for the weekend... I'll respond to the forthcoming "love it or leave it" messages next week! Oh, hello again!

Well, that just goes to show your bias here. "Mannerisms" encompass way more than your offensive behavior list, but if that is how you choose to see it... not much we can do about it. Opinions like this are part of the reason that many Americans don't give a fuck what the world thinks. We're damned no matter what we do in some peoples' eyes. Oh, hello again!

You've done a poor job of illustrating that. Do you really want a checklist, or are you just trying to say that it's absurd to expect anyone to integrate and at the same time not forget where they came from? If you can't see a difference between immigrants who arrive, embrace their new country, learn the language, and get to work and immigrants who immediately melt into their own community here and never bother to learn the language, or even follow the rules... then I can't help you. IMAGINE THAT!! They came over at a time when we didn't HAVE to teach their schools in their native tongues. A time when they didn't get everything in english AND in Italian. Nope... they pretty much had to learn to make it. I have 2 friends who are teachers for classes that are SPANISH only. That'll sure teach em! Yes, we should just accept that there really ARE no borders in the world and that anarchy will reign supreme no matter what we do. You know... if that's the way it works naturally... what's up with those Chinese... oh, and pretty much any other culture that's been around for a long long time? They must be really dying out fast. If you're okay with the US becoming a 3rd world shithole... just say so. We'll just open up the border until the economic balance between us and Mexico averages us down as much as possible. You're right... it IS crazy for people to want to avoid that. We're clearly racists. OH... okay... you said "America in it's current state isn't old enough to start talking about any culture of any significance." THAT's totally different. My comment stands. It's a cop out and BS to say that. WE are doing the dividing and conquering. The invading force is the "we are the world" crowd who seem to forget that countries are/were established as groups of people with a common culture and language. But hey, we're PC enough to make the tower of Babel work. Oh, hello again!

Yeah, I hear what you're saying... and I alluded to that in there too. But the main point is that there ARE other ways to identify Americans abroad because of our cultural "stuff". Dress, mannerisms, things like that. Of course, I had to expect the "stereotype" response since it's so cool to think we're all obnoxious pigs. I posit that we're no more obnoxious than any other group of tourists out there. Ever seen a group of pissed of Frenchies? Wow. Oh, hello again!

Change would be the PC euphemism for destroying a culture as we know (or maybe once knew) it. You could play semantic games like that endlessly. The Roman empire also "changed" there at the end, didn't it? France will probably "change" too, once it becomes dominated by people who don't share its culture and language. It is pretty popular to say that America doesn't/didn't /won't have a real culture. But in all honesty, it's there. But it's okay to say it doesn't exist if it helps the arguments. It's also funny how you want to use a mistake of past generations to justify a continuing pattern of that behavior. I guess in the fatalistic sense of things... we could say that all cultures die eventually. It's unfortunate that the US couldn't make it much more than 250 years without starting to destroy itself through the "good intentions" of the PC multi-culturalist crowd. Don't assume so much. My ancestors came from Czechoslovakia, Germany, Scotland, and Syria. They DID integrate. Sure... they kept some of their culture... (ever drink Shiner Bock?)... but they didn't imbue their children with a sense of entitlement to have signs, ballots, and all government phone calls in Czech... did they? Nope. They were PROUD to come here and become Americans. So maybe you can blame SOMEONE'S ancestors for not adopting Indian culture... but mine came here and adopted the culture of the place when they arrived. See previous post. It's the fact that people don't think that it's accurate that only further helps it along. In fact... it kinda addresses that in the speech itself. I guess only us xenophobic racists can see that it IS a good way to divide and conquer a country... not just ours. Oh, hello again!

Well, not to skip over your last post... I'll get that later... BUT, you're absolutely wrong about why Americans stick out. I've spent a lot of time in Europe. Hell, I speak French even... but everyone always knew I was American. They could even point me out in Denmark. Why? Not because I was the "stereotypical" obnoxious tourist... but because of my mannerisms, my clothes, my hat... stuff like that. Everywhere I've been, I've seen JUST as many, if not more, irritating and obnoxious European and Asian tourists. Oh, hello again!

Sure it's a joke... in that it is poking fun at the fact that the author doesn't REALLY want to destroy the US, but wants to point out some really good ways to do it that are ALREADY happening. What would French culture be? Berets, cheese, and wine? What would Mexican culture be? Burritos, frijoles, and sombreros? You can define a culture by MANY different things, and usually you can identify a culture without really putting a finger on one list of things. There IS an American culture, and it's fast disintegrating into the multicultural disaster that we're becoming. Just some of the things that I identify as part of the American culture... Baseball, Football, Hamburgers, Steaks, Hard Work, Independence, Optimism, English... and that's just a few things. Amazingly, if we Americans DON'T have a culture... why is it so easy to tell who's American when you travel? It does/did exist... and people who say it didn't, in my opinion, are being dishonest. I would definitely hate to see Chinatown go away, or Little Saigon, or Littly Italy. But I WOULD like to see that besides bringing some culture here to give themselves and us a taste of "home", that they integrated into American society. That includes, learning to speak the language so our legal documents don't have to be in 15 languages. Beleive it or not, when I lived in NY... I met a few people who were born and raised in Chinatown... and BARELY spoke English. Come on over... bring some culture, but become a part of the country that you risked everything to get to. But hey, that's reasonable... I don't expect everyone to agree. No, but it does seem to be quite honest and in most cases accurate. Does it bother people that someone said it because it isn't PC? It's not about kicking all the funny looking furriners out... it's about asking and expecting them to come here and join our society. Anyone encouraging policies or actions that only FURTHER separate the newcomers... is counterproductive to all of us. But then again... I don't expect us Americans to ever get it right... or even close. Very few people in power have the balls to actually speak up on the matter. Everyone's afraid that they'll be labeled a xenophobe or a racist. Of course, the only power behind those labels comes from people being ignorant enough to beleive those doing the labelling. Welcome to the downhill slope! Oh, hello again!

I always think it's a little embarrassing when freeflyers can't belly fly for shit. Come on guys... if you make 10 jumps in a weekend, TRY to do one belly jump where you really have to do some work. I'd rather be a good skydiver all around than be a good RWer or Freeflyer ONLY. There IS time for everything. Oh, hello again!

Well then, good for me since I rarely if ever use those 2 sites for articles. What sites would you recommend people use to back up what they say? Just so we know... Oh, hello again!

Most of my news articles posted come from CNN. So who are you referring to as "you guys"? At least I can't go in and edit an article from CNN, Fox, or NewsMax just before posting it. And since you may have missed it, I never said Wiki was inaccurate... just that people should be careful when using their articles on more controversial subjects as backup for their point. ALTERNATE REPLY: Okay "US guys" will stop using Fox and NewsMax when you stop using "Conspiracy Quarterly" as your source. Oh, hello again!

For those that disagree with my little "warning" about using Wiki on controversial subjects... You'd be better off using the REFERENCES at the bottoms of the entries to prove your point instead of the article itself... which changes on a daily basis for any number of reasons. In my opinion, it's just better form. Also I wanted to make sure that people knew what was up because I'm pretty sure that most folks don't go check the "discussion" and "edit history" tabs to see just how much back and forth goes on about some of these articles. Edit to Add: Also, remember I'm talking about controversial subjects on Wikipedia (politics, global happenings, etc), no scientific articles like compared in the Nature article posted. And as for people not really caring how they back up their arguments on DZ.com... well then why bother arguing about it in the first place? Honest debate is honest debate... here, or anywhere. Oh, hello again!

Look, I know most of us here are eager to "prove" those who disagree with us wrong, and it's great that some do the research to back up what they're saying. HOWEVER, constantly using Wikipedia, especially when "proving" something about a controversial subject, is a little misleading and not necessarily "proving" anything. Just to let you all know, ANYONE can edit Wikipedia articles at ANYTIME. Think that this doesn't discredit what is posted there on controversial subjects? Go look up something remotely controversial, then look at the discussion page for it to see how people are constantly editing and cleaning the articles to reflect their opinions. ( eg. Karl Rove) Just wanted to make sure that we all know that Wikipedia is nowhere close to the end-all, be-all of knowledge that some people seem to make of it here. Oh, hello again!

Read the replies again. Apparently some people here can't fathom the difference between people assimilating into a common culture, sharing a common language, and being American first and donning pointy white hats and burning crosses. With the mentality of people like that... it's no wonder the US chooses to be divided more and more. Hey, have it your way though... I'm just along for the ride. Oh, hello again!

You guys are so funny. It looks like those who don't like the article are pushing to make it sound like a racist work. Really, if you read it closely... it's more about division, lack of common language and culture... you know some of the things that actually DO seem like they're encouraged around here. But hey... you guys are probably right... America would last forever and be the good guys always if you only ran the place. Oh, hello again!