Trae

Some-one just explained it all to me after I showed off my ignorance. WE ARE THE ALIENS and we're totally lost in space. Planet earth is our space ship/hive and we've all gone completely mad. MMMmmm ..., preferred being ignorant. inreply to "There are no aliens. Move along. Nothing to see here. Move along. ' &^%$ing alien gate keepers!

in reply to "I read about 30 saves that were due to unconscious/injured/hard pulls that I could see happening to myself, all of them experienced skydivers with Expert Cypres." I suppose I did leave out the qualifiers in some of my statements. I should perhaps have included "In my experience " This may have been better english. I agree that generalised blanket statements are rarely totally precise . So at what point do we allow for freedom of choice and when does compulsory AAD's become a reasonable proposition? It's my feeling that there are those amongst us with a suitable command of the language that allows them to create their own little niche of influence. The result being that rest of us become dependent on their way of thinking. There's a degree of "baffling them with bullshit" going on here and not from my side of the discussion. I just hope we don't end up in a situation where we end up "believing our own bullshit ". 30 "REAL" expert saves does sound much more realistic than the approx. 180 claimed. Please remember I did ask if anyone with a flair for statistics could help here as I realise my maths sucks.(an opening to shoot my perspective down) So 300 minus approx 120 student and tandem saves minus 30 "unavoidable incidents ?" leaves approx 150 people who PERHAPS should not have put themselves or been put into into such a dangerous situation. So about half the C saves it could be argued are a result of people getting themselves into a situation beyond their abilities for whatever reason. It could be argued that a sport that fosters such irresponsibility is acting in a negligent manner. It's my guess that if this had been another dangerous pastime such as BASE jumping these 150 less capable types would have the lowest life expectancies. It interests me to see the apologistic nature of some of the replies. Thank you for at least conceding some of my points . Would it be a fair guess that you have some form of legal experience with these issues?

I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry Now we've just got to get our PM's to say sorry and we'll all be VERY rich.$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Thread killing competition anyone?

Cheers bloke

inreply to" what happaned years ago is hardly the fault of todays generation " There are still many wrongs and injustices that haven't been righted yet. Just because you may not have been directly responsible doesn't mean that you haven't benefited from these injustices. Some of us are constantly forced to face the effects of these injustices and find it hard to forget. Even the slightest little "we're sorry " would go a long way to dispelling the evil which some of your forebears spread around the world. Up til this time I have never heard a pommie say sorry. You sound like a likeable chap. Perhaps you can see the depth of what I'm getting at here? I feel good about you replying as you have and wish you all the best.

No matter what "new" suit you decide on it's a good idea to pick up a Classic2 for the times you just want a fuss free fly after your S3 or other hotter suit has worn you out a bit. The Classic2 will also come in handy when you want to introduce more people to wing-suit flying.

inreply to "Why you seem to hate the english now is rather confusing... " OK you guys are really beautiful... don't worry ..I don't hate you...but please don't try and re-write history to suit yourself. In fact I've got a lot of respect for some parts of your society. It's just that some of us out here have suffered at the hands of some of your less restrained members. Perhaps you kicked the bad ones our way or something and now pommie-land is wonderful.

OK I've had a chance to read through the list of cypres saves.. Did you think this list would discount my idea that there are more dangerous, careless etc skydivers around because AAD's have become prevalent.? If you did I think you should have another read of the list yourself. It reads to me like a collection of complete skydiving idiots. As I indicated earlier I feel the Student AAD's and Tandem AAD's are a good idea. Students and tandem passengers need as much protection as possible. Student Cypres activations account for approximately 33% of the saves in the list. Tandem activations account for approx. 8% . The rest (59%) are so called Expert Cypres activations. Of these very few are because the skydiver was unconscious. I got sick of reading how these people were saved because they lost height awareness or couldn't work out what to do next when experiencing a malfunction or simply waited for the AAD to save their lives. I feel my concerns are fully borne out by the statistics in this list. It is now my feeling that most of these people were not trained correctly or forgot their training somehow. Perhaps the gaps in their knowledge were not picked up due to the inexperience and incompetence of their instructors...perhaps. A bit like the blind leading the blind. Greed for $$$ ,pushing students through courses not properly trained and general instructor incompetence may be factors in this problem. I'm so glad I did the static -line course and was taught by people (ex-army) who really knew what they were doing and weren't just pretending. The civi-instructors didn't demonstrate the same degree of professionality.(6 syllables in that word ..wow ) This sport really is dangerous --its a pity some parts of it appear to be on the edge of negligence as well.

Sleepy old thread but someone's perhaps forgotton death still for us to learn from. This happened in France in the 80's to a static-line instructor . This high jump number instructor was used to sometimes not jumping out after putting out a load of static -liners. Sometimes he did jump out ..sometimes he didn't . When he wasn't going to jump out sometimes he didn't wear a rig. When he wasn't going to jump out sometimes he did wera a rig. Apparently this highly experienced gentleman got confused one day and jumped out after a load of static-liners without realising that he didn't have his rig on. Too late once he was out . Inconsistent behaviour got him in the end. Lesson ...we've learnt from this is ALWAYS WEAR YOUR RIG WHEN SKYDIVING AND PARACHUTING FROM AIRCRAFT. This is obvious you'd think but I still see "skydivers " sometimes go as observers and not wear a rig.

inreply to"Anyone else feel the same way? ' YES Sky church open all the way up to ......GOD?

I must have the slowest friggin' link in the world ...but I will persist. and read what you suggested. As regards ""less reliance on AAD's", what I meant (I wish I could put my thoughts into words better ) was less MENTAL reliance. It is not my particular feeling that AAD's are BAD as such. I've used them for students and tandems and have physically, mentally and legally relied on them in these uses. Of course if you are knocked out or broken up a bit in freefall an AAD will give you at least a chance of survival...very good ..surviving that is. Getting right down to the nitty gritty though I feel AAD's have fostered a sense of increased invulnerability which makes it more likely that we will be hurt by an out of control skydiver or other accident that wouldn't have happened if we were all being MORE careful. eg by not progressing too far too fast.. (like night driving too fast for the head lights) I wonder if we as a group recognise this potential problem. Bit of a mind loop I suppose and certainly not a reason to not use AAD's but making these things compulsory when they can kill you goes against my better instincts. Bit like making RSL's compulsory when in some situations they too CAN kill you. As for the 239 lives saved I wonder how many wouldn't have skydived without AAD's and therefore wouldn't have been in that situation in the first place.? Not all of them I'm prepared to concede. I suppose I'm reacting a bit to the people in positions of power & influence that want to force us to use an AAD. The next step along such a train of thought could be to force us to stop skydiving altogether .....as it's just not safe enough. As for that fascist DZO you mentioned ....I wonder if he has an AAD.? Cheers for the pertinent and thoughtful points you have made.

I've had to print them out cause it hurts too much laughin. I'll have to read them when i'm in a really bad mood (not often lately!) edited cause i have trouble laughing and typing at the same time ( need more practice) Applause

Warning enough is enough ET alien rave. Does anyone else feel the need for an alien forum or is it just me? Whenever I try to discuss real ETalien thought and feelings why do most people clam up? What are they trying to hide? What are you afraid of? Being put away in the funny farm for talking about ET's? You treat some-one like they're crazy and they'll act crazy! ......sometimes .. I estimate about 1 in a 100 people are capable of a good alien discussion. I've got a FEELING that about 1 out of every 100 of these talkative types ARE actual aliens. Why do people automatically think there is something wrong with people who discuss aliens when I know that these funny little fellows are amongst us. Live in the country and you get to see a lot of unexplained occurances. How do you explain the immense changes in the last 100 years or so compared to the rest of history. It was a fluke was it? Humans just seem to think yo've been smokin' too much peace pipe or indulging in the wrong chemicals. Skydivers are very interesting to aliens(i don't mean illegal aliens ...) and we can teach them a thing or two about having a real good time with bugger all high tech at our disposal. With access to their tech and our sense of fun some very very cool stuff becomes poss ..if only in our dreams for now. Non-polluting technology has been suppressed & smothered again and again by current governments who are now obviuosly chasing their tales in their small minded efforts to squeeze as much $$$$ from the oil and coal industries as possible . I say leave the black sticky stuff in the ground and get on with the future (hydrogen like the sun dummies) where all the bad stuff can take a back seat and let the little aliens show us the way . Without ET's help we'll be gasping on oil fumes for another 100years at least. Of course then magically hydrogen technology will appear just as we run out of oil...surprise surprise ..who'll be selling ? let me guess?.... der oil companies???????' Supressed technology?? why oh why do we let the oil industry keep shafting us every day? The answer of course is that the dollar freaks still run this planet with an explosively iron fist killing anything that gets in its way. Come on you guys you're wrecking it for all of us just for the sake of a few quadrillion measly dollars. Some lucky people are already filling their cars fuel tanks on liquid hydrogen but for the rest of us it's cough cough ...wipe off the black residue. The promises made to me as a child by the elders of this society have not been kept. Instead I've got to see these same adults being controlled by war, alchohol , drougs and poison. This is the same trick that was pulled on the natives in most countries around the world when the European population explosion changed the world some centuries ago. ie fill em up with white-man stuff so they'll be as stupid as the rest of 'em. Does any-one who's read this far know which state the hydrogen bowsers are located in?

............................you know when you humans called out for help?? Well something out there answered..............

Thanks Walt , Any good riots around to attend . I promise I'll be on my Best Behaviour. cheers from Trae liked the racoon story

Less experienced out first if no other major differences . Leaving less experienced in the plane is less responsible as these are more likely to leave too soon or too late . I've seen all too often the experienced 'cool' group go first thinking they'll get the good spot, time to pack-up etc leaving the less experienced with the long spot and perhaps long climb out as well. The experienced ones also don't see what the less experienced get up to left to their own devices. Bigger aircraft with load master = responsible skydiving.

sorry what was I gonna say?

inrep to 'But you've put up no substance' Since when does the questioner have to answer their own question around here? (This last ? IS a rhetorical ?) My concern here is genuine. I too get to see the results of over confidence that I attribute to AAD's amongst other things . Didn't see such carry on from low jump number people before AAD's became prevalent. If AAD's become compulsory I think its just a cop-out by the powers that be ....to cover their butts legally and not for any real gain in safety levels except for people who probably shouldn't go skydiving .(not a call I'd like to make ) I know its a hard one but it's not gonna go away . Skydiving is dangerous AAD or no AAD. Somewhere along the line better training ,less wool over the eyes and less reliance on AAD's just may give us a recognisable (not electrical) improvement in safety levels. Hey this actually feels like a discussion not just a disagreement or argument ...thank you.

Try Aloe-Vera and/or tea-tree oil. If that fails try clove oil (caution this numbs) And don't scratch

I've already made a bunch of money out of Veter hanging in there for last weekend. My next bet (nice and big) is that one of the smart- arse- no- it- all- bounce- bingo- bozo's bounces before Veter does .. hurry up will yas .

inrep to - "And there no question that deaths from a problem the Cypres is trying to solve have virtually been eliminated. There is no marked increase in anything related." The thing is I am questioning it . AND I'm suggesting that AAD's may actually be responsible for killing people --- however indirectly. Too big a thought ? Full of sheet? Life just aint so simple as get an AAD and now I'm a safe skydiver. I believe AAD's have allowed a lot of dangerous. reckless, careless people to inhabit the sport of skydiving under the mistaken belief it is now "safer"....cause when you get unconscious from the careless beggars bangin' into you you'll be alright cause you're got an AAD. DUR The stat's to prove this are beyond me and it is after all only a feeling I have formulated from experience. Some-one got some "proof" that skydiving is "safer" now ...like gravity stopped sucking did it? Bounce-proof are we all ? I like how those little cracks in the electronics inside Cypree got all covered up from the general skydiving community. But what would happen without the AAD security blanket I wonder.? And why do you have to keep sending it back to the factory all the time for new stuff like batteries...nice and dependant aren't we. Some set up those guys have got and lots of willing suckers. Soon it'll be compulsory and you won't be allowed to skydive without one...Good for business don't you think? The next thing is a personal attack on me for questioning a dependancy of others.??? Try playing the ball on this one if you know where and what the ball is. Me...I'm gonna buy shares in an AAD company and laugh all the way to the bank.

inrep to:-Three dedicated human beings spend a lot of time cleaning up the mess in SC Your post really aggravated me and I've made a big mess. It's gonna take more than 3 humans to clean this one up. Sorry.... too much fun in SC but the Bonfire 's not much different.

My point is left? ,...right? we're caught in the middle. and under fire from both sides.

Airlock experience-----Vengeance120 My canopy ---Katana120 Airlockers don't open as consistently as non-air-lockers due to being more sensitive to uneven openings and packing errors. Airlocked canopies are a bit more 'bouncy'' in the air and sometimes give weird loose line feelings in turbulence. Airlockers are a real problem on windy days as they won't deflate after landing as easily without special techniques. Airlockers can be a bitch to pack if you're not experienced with them. The airlocks DO provide some advantages due to increased stiffness of the airfoil. Whether you'd notice these improvement is questionable. Once you jump a Katana you just don't want anything else for all round skydiving. Unless you're into hard core swooping the Kat will see you through a lot of skydiving. Of course make sure you're ready for a lot of extra performance if graduating from a much slower canopy. The Katana is THE most highly developed standard construction (non-air-locked, non-cross-braced) 9cell elliptical canopy yet ...and no I don't work for PD.... I just recognise quality when I see it.