Trae

in reply to mike111 's"can't you ever give us pommies a break???? " mike111 you're OK aren't you? Some of us know the flavour of injustice only too well while others have no idea what it tastes like. In this case the public media hasn't even considered the possibility that this guy might have been set up for this. Unfortunately until you experience such injustice yourself it just doesn't seem to make sense...and then when you do experience it it's often too late. This is the power of mass media public brainwashing. It's just too easy to 'shoot the messenger ' and that's usually what happens. Please if you're a pommie don't take it personally ...it's not your fault ...hopefully. "Truth is my weapon ,what do you know? I wield it fast ,I wield it slow , I wield it now , feel it's blow, If it strikes you, there you GO" (Anonymous whistle blowers anthem.)

Thanks for your uplifting reply. I feel when YOU feel ready you won't be able to stop yourself.

in reply to sirenoremac's ' Systems of this type are very complex, even on a rigid wing. As far as this venturi effect idea goes, I'm not sure I understand what you're suggesting, but if I'm picturing it correctly, just the manufacture of such a system, made completely from fabric, would be absurd. But perhaps I am not getting the idea right. " At least you had the decency to include 'perhaps' along with your use of the word "absurd" . As to getting into arguments with professors ..it wouldn't be the first time and hopefully not the last. in reply to kallends ' Why don't you draw a picture of it if you think you're being misunderstood? I have free access to a very nice, big, wind tunnel when you're ready to test. " You'll have to be a bit nicer before I feel inclined to do as you suggest Although the free wind tunnel access must be lotsa fun. However I didn't come here for an argument ..I came hear to express an idea I had. As I stated in my original attempt to describe my idea I feel that a canopies fabric surface would absorb any benefits (with the venturi concept) and that this idea would probably be more suitable to say a Wingsuit ram air wing with a much stiffer surface . However that said I still feel that this could be possible with a very stiff surface generated at high speeds and the resultant higher internal pressures. Simplifying this concept somewhat ...a 'half way' IDEA is the following....I was wondering if the pressure created within the ram air wing would be at a higher pressure than the high pressure zone created beneath the airfoil. Therefore if this higher pressure could be 'leaked or pumped into the HP zone beneath the wing some lift advantages may ensue. Remember this is an idea ..and an extension of already existing technology (the shark skin bits) To be shot down so quickly makes me wonder if I've hit on something worth pursuing. More please.

If I KNOW my friends have been unfairly treated usually it becomes a point of honor for me to do everything I can to help.....usually. To hang around in a crowd where injustice even on a social level is prevalent is just too unsatisfying to bother with. If you have never had anyone stick up for you in your presence you might not realise just how amazing it can feel when some-one DOES stick up for you. When some-one sticks up for you and you don't even know about it then that is a whole different wonderful thing. What you've taken the time to describe here is not uncommon in skydiving . My feeling is that these people are the 'bulldozer' types who feel they have to push others out of the way in order for themselves to recieve the '2 seconds of fame' that comes from being the 1st at anything in skydiving. This just looks childish until it gets dangerous. Then it can border on the criminal....eg when you find that others within the sport have been secretly putting you down or spreading doubts about your safety or sanity. Unfortunatley in my experience I've seen such behaviour used as a tactic by skydivers who just can't accept that others are better or more experienced than themselves. This becomes dangerous when these 'bulldozer's won't listen to people who have already seen and/or made the mistakes they're about to commit themselves or encourage others to do so....whether unconsciously or not. Good on you for having your say and no doubt you 'll get to jump with your friend without the negative influences of these other pushy people ruining both your experiences.

in reply to ' I have never been to the ranch, but this is how I understand it to function: The ranch has a "no-rules" policy.' Been there done that and have the blood splats to prove it. No rules ..no brains...no care ....and in the end ..no skydive. When you have to jump out of the way of bouncing morons that some irresponsible DZSO allows to skydive near your loved ones ....come back and we'll talk some more. In the meantime ..... ah don't ride horses , jump at that DZ or go runnin' home to mumma.... but I do have lots of ghosts hanging around .

in rep 2 "swoooping? - it's what the latest generation of skydivers do to piss off the last generation and generally frequently injure themselves while doing so. ' Hookturning....what the last generation do to piss off every generation

In reptile 2 'Being a shape-shifter would be damn convenient if " Hey dere, I saw a guy bounce once under a double mal.... get up brush himself off and walk in laughing (no kidding)....are you saying he may have been an alien... The mystery is finally solved. The girls were a screamin,..... the guys were a peein' and the aliens kept bein' .............oh yeah.

in rep 2 'I think you are not fully understanding the mechanics of pressurization of a ram-air canopy.' ... What I do understand is that this is not the correct forum to express such ideas. The mechanics of RA pressurisation.....YAWN......(DUR) I'm talking enhancing lift by improving the micro boundary layer flow dynamics perhaps by using a venturi effect (venturi inside wing top surface scavenging- lower surface pumping) if possible....???? while maintaining a suitable RA pressure as well perhaps by using airlocks separate to the proposed venturi section. Too big for this put down arena? I think you might not know what I'm getting at here. But you're right I don't pretend to fully understand ANYTHING.

in rep 2" is sexual attraction a learned experience." ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, BIOLOGICAL INSTINCTIVE RACIAL NECESSITY ....also lots of fun especially if you really like your partner(s). As you go furrther down the path it gets a whole lot funner better and easier to just have the sort of time YOU want rather than trying to respond to mass sexual hypnosis. Like is sometimes said ' you can do the same thing with 1000 different people or 1000 different things with the same person.'

in rep 2"I just don't get it! " ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, The 2nd last time I went to a doctor the guy tried to tell me that it was doctors that brought life to this planet. (what happened to good ol women I thought out loud?) This was after going there because I thought I may have swallowed some broken glass and was worried about some pains in my tummy. He put his hands over my stomach and told me I was probably imagining it. I left and got another opinion and this doc ignored my questions and wrote out a refferal to a pschiatrist. I'm left still wondering if I swallowed any glass or not. I'm working up the courage to go and see another doctor ..but who knows what he's going to tell me. Bit scared he might recommend an amputation or something. You don't get it and neither do I.

in rep 2 "News from back home: ' .................... here's some more Dingo pics . The real reason 'the powers that be' got the Chamberlains for this thing was that at the time a mass histeria took over most Ozzies because the Chamberlains didn't show enough grief to the feeding frenzy media...... saving it instead for themselves in private. There was also the fact that the C's were religious and pretty pious. You might notice in in the Sillypeople photos that out of heaps of people only 2 were sensible enough to be wearing a hat in the middle of the Australian desert.... including the coroner whose decisions landed Lindy in pris. The other photos show the REAL dangers in the Australian bush.......women with gerns and those freaking fearless water buffs.......THE most dangerous critter out there if you leave the snake spiders and drop bears out of it. Dingo's are fun compared to water buffs ...I know I've got a few as pets......(.shhhh don't tell anyone) ....they make the absolute best guard and watch dogs going....ah've got the scars to prove it.

inreply to 'Interesting perspective from someone who walked in to the theater about six months in to the movie. ' Not sure if you're talking about yourself here..... This skydiing movies been playin' for more than 6 months. "but you need to understand ' I love it when people tell me what I NEED to stand under.. Wonder how it's gonna end this time.

in reply 2"I dont have a belly button, does that count? " That depends on if you bit it off yourself or something else did.

inreply to :'I understand that a properly trained rigger will find Racers easy to pack, but the simple fact is that many don't, and we don't always have a choice of who does it.' ................ I agree with most of what you've said here and it is certainly good to hear that Infinities are the most fool proof rig around ...good pointer nfor people who have to accept a lower standard of reserve packer. As you say we don't live in a perfect world but that shouldn't stop us in our pursuit of excellence.(here I am talking about the persuit of excellence and I can't even spell it) If riggers are in general receiving less than perfect training them perhaps that is what the real issue is here not which preference for which container is better or not so better. If we don't insist on decent standards that aim high then what we get will be substandard or the pursuit of mediocrity or worse. I like to find a rigger I can trust as being highly qualified and not just some poorly trained packer out to make a few extra bucks. ..........but each to his own.

Would it be an advantage to have the low pressure top skin of a canopy draw the micro-boundary layer flow down through the skin between these little bumps further decreasing the pressure on the top skin? Could the ram air pressure be used to further increase the under surface high pressure boundary zones somehow.? It has occurred to me that if some form of venturi effect was used in conjunction with partial airlocking of the rear of the chord there may be some lift advantages at high speeds and high ram-air pressurisation. The inner part of the canopy or wing could be shaped to give this venturi effect. The outlets of the venturi could be located towards the rear half of the bottom surface and designed so that sufficient RA pressurisation is maintained and the high pressure created in the venturi be distributed to the lower boundary layer. In visualising this effect there would have to be a very tight skin surface otherwise it seems any advantages would be negated by the fabric absorbing rather than transmiting any extra lift achieved. If this did work somehow perhaps it would be more applicable to wingsuit RA wings as they could be manually tightened rather than just relying on RA pressure. Bit like a blown wing in miniature using RA pressure rather than jet efflux. ????? any aerodynamicists out there help with this one? I know my ideas are stupid until I see some-one pick them up and run away with them

and a main flap that wont open is good because...? -- Goin' cheap.......... a rig you can pick up by the reserve handle ..shake the sheet out of and it still won't let down or get off .............going cheap today only. Only a few left .....HURRY

inreply to "Surely if you reason with them, they will listen to someone with a hundred times the number of jumps, rather than ignore advice and do stupid shit!" People like that really do exist." ................................. Very few people in skydiving appear to have the sense of responsibility to actually ground people if they are exhibiting dangerous or careles behaviour.... mustn't make economical sense.$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ You want to get through to a skydiver who has become dangerous to him/herslf and to others..... you ground em. Just for a day to start with ..if that don't work.. try a week etc. This can actually work . (DUR) in reply to RL's ' As it is, exhibiting "a decided lack of care" isn't actionable under the circumstances.' Just a little question... When is it actionable? If such behaviour is tolerated or indeed encouraged does such a lack of care then extend to those allowing such behaviour within their sphere of influence when that person does have a duty of care? As for the lack of care gleefully exhibited by some.... well that could be put down to some form of compassion overload...understandable with the current state of world events and apparent decline. If you haven't seen where this lack of compassion goes..... sit back ..put your measly $$$ on the current victims .... and feel real good about yourselves when you keep on creating your own reality. It's obvious that decent people would not do such things as appears common at the bounce binge death zone. By the way it's real good for business...bouncing that is... its been proven time and time again since the Romans did their thing with the gladiators. Trouble is you end up attracting the REAL sickos...not just the little baby versions. If you don't recognise such signs of decay ?...... well we know what happened to the Romans don't we? It's all down hill from here...........you can switch off the motor and just roll on home .... just watch out for that last turn it's a proper beauty.

in reply to "Same reason most DZO's don't ground people who jump small canopies, or jump without an AAD I suppose. If he's just going to kill himself (so the thinking goes) why ground him?" "Perhaps because the kind of people considered likely to hurt themselves may have a mentality that makes them likely to hurt others too?" .............................. Reading through this thread it's hard for me not to get the impression that the death game people just don't have the communication skills or sense of responsibility that you'd think would go with a 'safety' attitude towards skydiving. It seems they've got a lot to learn and are recognising their own deficiencies through Veter who is probably just their latest 'scape goat'. Bit too much second guessing perhaps but they seem a bit like wayward little kiddies to me. What influence do they have? They probably think they're running the place. The mental pressures they're applying to people they can't show decent care to is likely to end up hurting others as you suggest. is this game legal ?? ....in a court of law it could be argued that they are exhibiting a decided lack of care which could be construed as negligent behaviour. Such behaviour is certainly not funny to people who have had loved ones die at that DZ.

in reply to all th replies Cheers you guys ..............must be a heap of memories floating around from flying beasts such as these . Perhaps some of the sweeter ones can be extracted some how......... painlessly. Looking at pictures and reading the common books about such events gets a bit repetitive . I wonder if there's any military aircrew from the 50's & 60's & 70's still kicking about doing the odd skydive.? Must be I'd suppose. I'm sure I'm not the only one that'd be interested in a yarn or two.

Not sure if yo all are ready for this ..but check this out...... eek pictures attached after reading the jpgs.............. .................................. This is the sort of stuff that gets dreamed up and shat upon from on high in the land down under after leaving the imperialistic lower regions. Nothing new for some of us.... 'Even the Queenie is told to take a back seat by these guys. Did anyone really believe that the twisted world domination trip was started by any-one not produced from the the seething cesspits of pre-industrial Europe?' (wee where did this mag come from? ) . It's funny (not ha ha ) how around the time of the mass eeka there was a flurry of lone rangers ( a lot of them disarmed Vietnam Vets) standing up to the authorities . We got to see these disarmed champions being taken down by dogs , mace , police and sometimes gunfire in our streets or on telly each night. Sometimes these 'last standers' were weilding samurai swords or ancient pistols taken in battle at great cost to our forebears in warfare. Of course they were all presented as crazy people . Now I wonder what really happened and who it was they upset by getting too close to the truth. My strong guess is the stench emanates from the British Isles...some of those imperialists just don't want to let go....and some seem to have forgotton the 'Rules of Cricket' ol' chap. No offence to the masses of decent pommies ...we know you're out there. ....but how sick has some of your seecrit cervise got ????? I can do without first hand experience thank you very much as I have already seen the tactics employed . Now .....Who needs to see a doctor???

in reply to 'No design is perfect. There's pros and cons to everything. Arguing how one proven design is worse or better than another is futile. " Granted .

Don't discourage this guy ..he sounds like the future. What he needs is some decent guidance to channel his enthusiasm down paths where he won't have to repeat past mistakes . If he's wanting to make a wingsuit .... tell him where to get some up to date wingsuit design and manufacturing advice . He might just be a total genius and invent a landable wingsuit. If he wants to go base jumping put him in touch with some responsible base jumpers who he might respect and perhaps listen to. If he wants to listen to music in his helmut he might be one of those rare types that can solve intricate puzzles while boppin' away to Mozart. His inexperience concerning wing-loadings and the results of novices flying too small a canopy is an extrapolation of what is seen everyday on DZ's where novices hook- in on canopies they perhaps should never have been allowed to use. A few videos of lethal and injurious incidents or photos of the results might get through to him about the dangers. If a person this guy respects fills him in on a few realities then he just might listen to reason....otherwise if he's just a delusional fool caught up on his own invincibility then he'll have little trouble finding like minded people if he stays in the sport and manages to stay alive up to say jump no' 100. Round parachutes used to save heaps of guys like this ... who told him about ram-airs? ...how irresponsible of you

Thanks Bob.Dino Your replies have been real helpful. I now know how to get my rig insured at a good rate and it looks like I've got a wingsuit boogie to get to at crissy. Is that you goin' for a job at Wilton ? Cheers

Here's a little technique available free of charge that allows any viewers to determine if they themselves are aliens and have just perhaps conveniently forgotton. You'll need a full length mirror and about half an hour of free time in a quiet place where you won't be disturbed. Gaze at the mirror without concentrating on any one place . It can sometimes help if you blur your eyes a little or squint a bit. If you wear spectacles or contact lenses then remove them for this experiment. The less blinking you do the better and quicker this will work. Now if you see yourself turn into something you no longer recognise then welcome to the Alien Club. If you scare yourself sheetless ...go back to forgetting that you are an alien. Only recommended for mentally stable types otherwise the after effects can be problematic. Sorry ...don't have a link for this . Signed Freelancing Alien Hunters Inc.

in reply to hookitts "I'm going to turn that around and ask, what brand and model rig were you witness to either of those scenario's occuring, and when? " You can TRY to turn my comments around (or anything else for that matter ) if you want.. in reply to Coldduck's original question I also recommend the Teardrop (pop top ) and at a push the Javelin ..which is also a pop-topish design . Have fun poppin' away