StreetScooby

There are new words in here that I need to digest, billvon. I will. Thanks. We are all engines of karma

My basic point in this entire discussion has been that AGW proponents don't have a leg to stand on. The numbers aren't adding up, with any argument that I've seen. I love to see numbers, and I'm not talking IPCC numbers. Simple thermo will suffice just fine. We are all engines of karma

You're contributions to these discussions are worthless. The smartest guys I know are always able to simply communicate what others perceive to be difficult. For whatever reason(s), you have not shown that ability. You, you're not as smart as you think your are. QED? Show us your good stuff. How about an equation that we can discuss. We are all engines of karma

Ok. The question still stands. Why is CO2 important in the AGW debate? Why not some other gas (CH4)? I'm not looking for theory. I'm looking to see numbers. We are all engines of karma

What a nonsense statement. What an arrogant reply. At this point in time you've just admitted that you can't do the math. We are all engines of karma

No one is disagreeing with this description of the physics. You have been unable to provide an estimate on the actual effect one might expect from this feedback loop. I think I've made my point that arguing AGW based upon a 3 degree rise in atmospheric temperature is hogwash. So, you're arguing that a feedback loop has been going on, and we are enhancing that feedback loop by putting CO2 into the atmosphere. Somewhere in that feedback mechanism, there is an open thermodynamic system. It's not closed. Q accumulated = Q input - Q output. The earth, sea, and air all have their own control volumes around which to do this dynamic balance. Each of the Q input/output variables will have multiple driving forces. The dominant forces here will be evaporation, convection, and radiation. Since we are basically at equilibrium, Q accumulated is zero. Therefore, Q input = Q output. Again, you have not been able to explain why CO2 in practice will have a significant impact. I fully understand its insulating properties, but as far as I can see, it seems to be insignificant. Since this seems to be high school to you, why don't you whip up some calculations, and share the numbers with us. We are all engines of karma

Tell me more about your insulator. How thick is it? How much does it weigh? How well does it conduct heat? How well does it radiate heat? We are all engines of karma

How? We are all engines of karma

Outstanding charts, billvon. Very helpful. I'm going to look these over and start phrasing questions in those terms. Thank you. Again, why the emphasis on CO2? We are all engines of karma

Ok, how does CO2 come into play here? We are all engines of karma

Why the emphasis on CO2? We are all engines of karma

Finally, we're getting somewhere. Where is this heat being retained? We are all engines of karma

Is the oven set above or below 212 degF? We are all engines of karma

Ok, I'll play along with you. The temperature of the water goes up. We are all engines of karma

Where are you putting the control volume for your energy balance? If your control volume is simply the jug of water, what relevance does it have in this conversation? We are all engines of karma

So, what am I missing? We are all engines of karma

I understand the argument. The CO2 is absorbing heat radiated from the earth, thus preventing its escape into space. That heat being absorbed by CO2 is going to do one of 3 things: 1) Radiate itself into space via a different frequency 2) Transfer back to earth via another heat transfer mechanism (convection). 3) Increase the temperature of the CO2, thereby promoting mechanisms 1/2 above. So, the CO2 heats up the atmosphere by 3 degrees. That's not going to do anything to the temperature of the earth/sea. The AGW argument that CO2 is dominating anything of significance is ridiculous. If it's the earth/sea that's actually being heated by 3 degrees, that's a completely different argument. There's only one place that energy is coming from, and that's an increase in the output of the sun. We have no control over that. We are all engines of karma

Again, the USA is a Republic. Our elected leaders are sworn to uphold the Constitution, and it's up to SCOTUS to see that they do. That stopped working when FDR took over, and it's been going down hill since. We are all engines of karma

It depends on which side is driving the change. If you heat the body of water 1 degree, then let it equilibrate with the air, then the air will definitely increase that 1 degree. If you heat the air 1 degree, then let the body of water equilibrate with it, the air will cool down to the temperature of the body of water. If you claim they are both being heated at the same time (which is what your equation shows), then that's a different argument. If it's the Earth that's being heated, then where is that additional heat coming from? How does atmospheric CO2 play into this? Claiming it's absorbing enough energy to cause a 3 degree increase in Earth/seawater is ridiculous. Do the delta-Q calc and ask yourself what temperature the CO2 would have to reach to facilitate that? It's simply not possible. The AGW disciples claim that a 3 degree increase in atmospheric temperature is due to CO2 is simply rubbish. I'm more than happy to learn something here, but the numbers simply aren't adding up. Maybe you could show me how? As you said, it's only high school stuff. We are all engines of karma

Agreed. A large point of what FDR did went against the Constitution. SCOTUS at that time tried to stop him, but couldn't. That set the tone that the Democratic party has followed since. Republicans have become just as bad. We really need to move on from these parties. They are more interested in their parties than the country. We are all engines of karma

Both the Democratic and Republican parties have failed America badly. They are more interested in their party than they are in America. We really need to move past them. How to do so effectively is something I'm looking for. We are all engines of karma

How so? We are all engines of karma

That's why we're a Republic. We democratically elect our political leaders, who are then sworn to uphold the Constitution. We are all engines of karma

What's the latest from the antarctic? We are all engines of karma

So, their not discussing atmospheric warming, then? We are all engines of karma