StreetScooby

So, that would bracket the problem definition even better. Which raises some questions: 1) Who are the Wahabis? 2) Why are they so "influential"? We are all engines of karma

You make it sound like our troops were standing right next to him when he was shot. How far away were US troops fighting from when this happened? I guess a mile or more. We are all engines of karma

But, just think of the things we could discuss!!! We are all engines of karma

ROFLMAO!!!! I always used Clubs, since they're glueless!!! We are all engines of karma

Yep, this topic has an active thread in SC. Too scared to go in there, Slappie? We are all engines of karma

Clearly there was doubt, in the mind of those soilders who pulled the trigger with the intent of protecting their own lives. How many times have Muslim fighters used ambulances in the course of their activities? At that point in the war, our soilders weren't fucking around. Shit happens in a war zone. We are all engines of karma

Thanks! We are all engines of karma

Why isn't he saying, "Go make me a sammich"! Maybe we should get sangiro to make this into a real forum, instead of a thread that never dies! I'd love to talk about my farts!!! I've actually requested this http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2480208;#2480208 We are all engines of karma

Yep. They basically "rent" the money, or something like that. Anytime you take a literal interpreation of a book that was written hundreds of years ago, where the audience was a bunch of goat herders, you're going to have issues. We are all engines of karma

I hate to ask this, but WTF is a pallet of Zig Zags? We are all engines of karma

There's plenty of reproducible observations to support that conclusion!!! We are all engines of karma

There was a time recently where I was flying to Memphis, alot. Was staying in Memphis for 2 weeks out of every 4. I hate driving, so I hooked up with a local cab company. Ending up getting to know the owner of the cab company. A really good guy from Lebanon. Over the course of the year that I did this, I got to know the guy pretty well. We had many conversations on this topic. One day, he shared with me his summary of the entire middle east issue. Muslims are required to pray 5 times a day. In addition to praying, they need to prep for prayer. It takes alot of time out of the day. Compare this to the Jews and Christians, who basically go to church for one hour a week. Who's going to be better at doing business? While the Muslim is praying, the Jews and Christians are out doing business and making money. Thus, there is a severe economic divide between Mulsims and non-Muslims. Who's fault is that? There's a skydiver I know who is a captain in the merchant marines. Does alot of business in the middle east. He told me a story once. He was bringing a huge ship into dock in Riyadh. Two of his key operators, who were devout Muslims, walked off their posts to go pray. He about shat himself. I spent a decade in the petrochemical industry working mainly with Exxon. There were many stories about local operators in Saudi plants that refused to take basic safety precautions because of this Inshallah thing. The lack of personal responsibility in the business area is appalling, even downright ridiculous, IMO. We are all engines of karma

Ooohhh, sounds like you bought a fancy one! We are all engines of karma

Thanks very much for responding. Here's some questions. Who is responsible for improving the economic conditions? The West, or their leaders? Clearly, their leaders have failed for a prolonged period of time now, even though they clearly had the resources to not fail. This is discussed in the article mentioned in my original post. We are all engines of karma

Drink whiskey and expense it? We are all engines of karma

Here's a question - Can the root of the radical extremism be found in the Wahabis? We are all engines of karma

I agree that the comparison is silly. But, at the same time, Skyrad does provide good input. I'm hoping that, in the context of this thread, we can address the issue for what it is historically, and that means over 100s of years, not 10s of years. We are all engines of karma

There, fixed it for ya'. LOL!!! We are all engines of karma

There's a new type of Cheez-it cracker that uses some type of "white cheese". I'll take a box of those. And, of course, I can always use some more beer for my cooler We are all engines of karma

I take it you're a Muslim? Fantastic! I've got goose bumps, since you're willing to engage in debate in this forum. I'm certain at least I'm going to walk away from this having learned something. It always makes my day when I learn something, so here we go: Very interesting. I was raised as a fundamentalist Southern Baptist in the deep south of the US. The "power structure" (for the lack of a better phrase) is similar. Each church/mosque is basically funded by those that worship there. Absolutely, and I'm thankful for it. What kind of support do they need? Who is meddling in their internal affairs, and how? Does letting Islam evolve naturally mean tolerating their radicals whilst waiting for a "Reformation" (my word) to take place? Agreed. This clearly is the sticking point on the international level. Example - Waziristan. Those folks are living peacefully, but harboring radicals who then leave that enclave to pursue their evil. What needs to be done to encourage them to turn out the radicals? We are all engines of karma

Do you think the radicals didn't exist before we funded them? Clearly they did. Do you think the radicals will go away if we stop funding them? Clearly they won't. Your point is addressing a tiny fraction of this history of this clash. Now that they've been funded, the clash has moved internationally. I think you're wrong here. The extremists have been there long before we can into play. When's the last time a non-Muslim church has been allowed to openly operate in Saudi Arabia? While I agree with most of your points, I don't see you weaving them together into something that can be used to define the problem properly. Don't get me wrong, I don't know how to define the problem properly either. Until we (as in Western culture) recognize it as a culture clash, we're not going to be able to define the problem properly. The problem won't be solved, until its defined properly. The paper does a great job at "bracketing" the problem. Now, it's up to us and/or our leaders to further define the problem. Blaming all this on GWB ain't the problem here. We are all engines of karma

I agree with your assessment. I believe peaceful elements could mesh peacefully, but they're not the driving force behind the religion. Islam hasn't had its reformation, yet. Wonder if there is a way to promote that external to the religion? Probably not. We are all engines of karma

That's the point of the article. While I have absolutely no problem with the peaceful practice of Islam, the religion has produced violent extremists who are operating outside of national boundaries. The entire nature of the religion is such that the moderates will never turn out their radical elements. And even worse, with the Saudis teaching hatred, there will always be radical elements. I am not advocating nuking them, etc. I am advocating that we accept the situation for what it is, and then come up with appropriate ways to resolve it. You can't solve the problem until you properly define the problem. We are all engines of karma

So, I take it you don't view us as being in a culture clash with Islam. So be it. Did you read the article? At least our religous zealots aren't running around blowing up people who don't believe as they believe. And whilst some of them are doing their best to redefine science, there's enough rational people here to keep them from doing that. America didn't start this violent conflict. The only way we're going to end it is by recognizing it for what it is. While I don't agree with GWB's ways, he at least recognizes it for what it is. Too many people in this country want to talk this problem away. Ain't gonna happen. We are all engines of karma

This article does a tremendous job of saying what I've been feeling for a long time now. Heads up people, we are in a culture clash with the Muslim religion, and it's not going to change until we recognize it for what it is: http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htmurph/articles/20061013.aspx We are all engines of karma