Orange1

Jo... stop looking at that Daniel Cooper. (There are records that give more detail by the way, and there is even a link as to where to find them from the site I posted here.) It seems pretty clear from the records he died in Vietnam, even if they have not found his remains. You missed a big part of the point of me telling that particular story, but never mind. Happy Christmas. In the spirit of Christmas I'll not address any of the other points in your post, save to say that you currently only have 2 people defending you, but if you keep on accusing everyone of having an agenda it will soon be down to zero. Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

Interesting! Are there any studies about dwell time of US currency abroad, especially in SE Asia? Does it just recirculate endlessly in country or does it come back to the US? Just ONE undamaged Cooper bill in SE Asia or anywhere would sure get my blood pressure up. Bet the serial numbers were not widely published in SE Asia. The bills probably could have been spent without much fear of detection. 377 I'm meant to be sleeping There must be work on it by the Federal Reserve somewhere, I'll check their site tomorrow. It was a major issue in Lat Am, I know that. If I think of Zimbabwe as an example - dollar bills are basically used till they are falling apart. Very few dollars that find their way into the hands of the general population there will ever get back to the US. Edit: they get back to the US when they get back into the commercial banking system and are either used to pay for imports, or when the bills are old and need to be exchanged. I'll also need to look into how dollarized the system was - Snow has said Vietnamese could deposit USD at banks, but if things go pearshaped you want your USD under your mattress. Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

What did you think about my post on MPCs, orange1? Did you understand what it was all about? if not, go back and read it again. I provided links to google books and wikipedia. I thought my last post, highlighting that MPCs were considered non-negotiable currency was interesting. Also, the ability to make money on the black market trade of MPCs and real green US dollars. And how you could money order that back home! More interesting than stupid Vegas casino theories! US green money was worth more in SE Asia in the late '60s, then in the US. Doesn't mean anything, but it points out how shallow our thinking has been. Sorry Snow.. I did read the post but wasn't concentrating on currency at the time. Possibly also because any economist worth their salt could have told you that was gonna happen, it didn't really register as "unusual" (and thus it didn't stick in my mind). Your points are all valid; I was more thinking along the lines that what typically happens in a country at war - generally means high inflation and rapidly depreciating currency - whether or not it is legal, hard currency (usually the USD) becomes the de facto currency. (Even in a country not at war but hyperinflationary - eg's of Latin America in the 80s, Zimbabwe today). So throughout SE Asia at the time, day to day transactions were probably pretty dollarized. This is what i mean by the dollars could have been circulating for years - and outside a legal system, or in a situation where people would not want to exchange them for their own currency, their chances of ever finding their way back to the US would be pretty small. Ergo, your serial numbers get lost in Asia... I also have to beg some forgiveness in general, not trying to make excuses but i have been running on about 4-6 hours sleep a night for the past 3 months when I am one of those people who needs 8-10. I get sloppy as a result sometimes. So, it's late here and I am off to sleep. May I echo greetings of merry christmas & happy chanukah to all. Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

? No one discusses anything I post. I usually post a one off here, there's no discussion, and that's it and we go back to talking about Duane's obsession with bald men in band uniforms. The info about the testing likely being from Takhli, came from the Leeker post 377 made. 377 gave me additional info that gave the source of Leeker's surmise. The rest was my interpretation of the video. I tried to be accurate. If not, tell me, and I'll correct. Why do you think I was looking at Takli Air Base, say for the skin color? The Leeker info, fwded by 377, that id'ed Takhli. Note Leeker's source were the Leary interviews. I posted a link to the Leary papers online also. So while there was no discussion, there were posts. "...but Air America's/SAT's 727s were used for tests only, as it seems. This is a sentence quoted from my file about Missions to Tibet: "Later, the 727s were even tested at Takhli for air drops with conveyer belt and rollers, because the aircraft could be pressurized until the drop, but although the system worked well, it was never used in operation.[1]" In the documentary Flying Men, Flying machines you can see drops made from one of the 727s. Kind regards Dr. Joe Leeker" [1] Thomas C. Sailer, interview made with Willliam M. Leary at San Francisco on 8 September 1985; professor Leary's notes, preserved at UTD/Leary/ I B14F6. Stop pouting Maybe it was the "bit here bit there" that I missed, and I haven't always followed links, and I was probably distracted at the time... I have a lot more time on my hands right now (as you may have noticed). If nothing else, all this other stuff is interesting at least... even if it doesn't lead anywhere. Hmmmmmmm... army band, maybe? Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

(they talk about between 591 and 1205 POWs - 591 were returned by the North Vietnamese; even if 1205 is the right number, there are still hundreds of unaccounted for servicemen that would not have been POWs. Source for above: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/vietnam/trenches/mia.html Wiki gives us a breakdown by branch of service in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War_casualties For example, there were 649 Air Force personnel missing, of which 185 appear to be accounted for. They also give a breakdown between missing in Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos and China. This is all rather sobering reading but if you wanted to disappear... good cover. this site http://www.dtic.mil/dpmo/pmsea/files.htm has a database of the missing. you can search by branch of service, home state, or name. And I kid you not, one of the missing is a Daniel Cooper. http://www.dtic.mil/dpmo/pmsea/HTML/pmsea_html_c.htm (scroll down the alphabetical list) If that isn't enough, his home state is Oregon. He is listed as killed in action, body not recovered. For people looking for circumstantial evidence, coincidences etc as the bedrock of a "case", you surely can't get much better than a Dan Cooper from Oregon as a suspect. (I'm not saying this was the guy, I fear it more likely he met a sad end in Vietnam ..but it does go to show that plenty wierd "coincidences" "strange facts" etc are out there if you look for them). Searching by state, looking only at those listed as "presumptive death" (ie those missing presumed dead), there are 22 from Washington, 2 of which went missing after the hijack http://www.dtic.mil/dpmo/pmsea/unaccounted/pmsea_una_p_wa.pdf and 17 from Oregon, although only one who went missing after the hijack; and that was pretty soon after (end Dec 1971), but the guy was a civilian. http://www.dtic.mil/dpmo/pmsea/unaccounted/pmsea_una_p_or.pdf Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

Ah, OK. But this was never posted on this site, am I right? I haven't seen discussions on this. It has led me to add another angle to Orange's Pet Theory though. Staying with loadmaster/kicker (or possibly extending to military jumper without own gear), we lose the Canada angle (accent doesn't work) and focus on someone stationed in Asia who was home on leave for the hijacking. This gives us someone who had no door fear, could have jumped (if accidentally) before, chose the NB6 cos he was familiar with it, knew the 727 could be jumped (following 377's logic) , and wasn't found in the US because he wasn't there anymore. Have I left anything critical out of my profile? Question for vets: I'm betting dollars were happily accepted in SE Asia around the time of the vietnam war? ("negotiable currency"). Those dollars could have been circulating in Asia for years. I'd have to assume that the Ingram find represented a wad that got lost in the jump, assuming the jumper survived. Still have to take the possibility he bounced. In this case: He wasn't missed at home because he was expected to be in Asia, when he didn't return for duty it was assumed he was AWOL or in Canada as many others were? How long would it have taken before he was really missed under these circumstances? Is it not true that there were a number of soldiers who just went missing in Asia and he might have been assumed by his family to be one of those? Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

And not only in this particular circumstance Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

The simplest answer, given what we know of Duane, is that he was hatching some kind of criminal scheme with this guy as victim. Of course he wouldn't want to be seen. The only thing I find really confusing about this is why you didn't ASK Duane at the time why he wanted you to take pictures of this guy without him being around?? Surely you found it strange then as well? Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

Were those the so-called "black bats"? I saw a reference to them and was gonna chase it up... Jumping with dogs happens more than you might think. The dogs apparently like it. Apparently. Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

I liked your list. Being me I am probably focused on the wrong aspects of it though (why membership rises sharply and then levels off/drops). Is the team abandoned in China wih or without the desk clerk, though? Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

Again I hope I am not repeating anything Snow said - I did relook at his posts and don't think this is a repeat - some more details. From this site: http://actionnooz.com/videos/b727/page4.html With the video of the test drops, some info - below. Again, bold is my emphasis. (I should note that due to bandwidth issues I have not watched the video, so all the below was news to me.) *** This snippet is from the CIA/Air America film "Flying Men, Flying Machines" produced circa '70/'71. The air drop tests were likely done at the CIA/Air America facilities at the Takhli Royal Thai Air Force Base in Thailand.The palletized air drops used a modified 727 interior. The ventral stairs are apparently removed and replaced with a ramp the two jumpers slide down. The jumpers use static lines. It is unclear what flight configuration is used, so the exit speed is undetermined. The film makes a point of saying the plane can be pressurized, and unpressurized for the drop. This means the aft door would work normally, and be openable in flight after depressurization.Full video (87 minutes) in a variety of formats, available for free download at http://www.vietnam.ttu.edu/AirAmerica/FMFM/index.htm According to available research, the system, while tested, was never used in an actual mission.Unless you count Flight 305. So we have: - a probable location of the test drops (helps narrow down who might have known about them?) - information that the plane did not need to be unpressurized the whole way. Did Cooper not know this? Or did he figure trying to convince the pilots that they could do this would be too difficult? - we don't know from the video what the config or speed was, but Cooper knew what he wanted. (apparently - ref the debate about whether he actually asked for 15 deg flaps or the pilots just concluded that from what he asked them) - information that the stairs themselves were actually not there for the tests (those of you who have watched the video will have figured this out I presume). IF Cooper knew about these tests, how would he have known the stairs could be lowered in flight? Would he have assumed that because the ramp could? Or couldn't he be sure and that is why he wanted them down on take-off. Or... [trumpets sound] maybe he battled to get the stairs down because he had worked with a ramp not stairs?? - apparent information that following the test drops, Cooper was the only time the 727's drop ability was put to practical use. The tests were done 70-71... great timing? Did the Feds ever look for paratroopers/airborne etc who happened to be home inbetween tours of duty in Asia at the time the hijacking took place? {Where, o where is Major Major Ckret??} Edit: if someone was career stationed in Asia this would also be a reason no-one would miss him at home? Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

Anonymous (sadly) poster commenting on an article on 727s here (last comment on page): http://www.super70s.com/super70s/Tech/Aviation/Aircraft/727.asp Has anyone read Serling's book? http://www.amazon.com/dp/031205890X?tag=allinterviewscom&camp=15041&creative=373501&link_code=as3 Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

I don't think this link was posted by Snow before. It refers to a B17 that people spoke about as being operated by Air America though it didn't officially own one at that stage (see 1st para of doc from link). The plane is obviously quite different from a 727 but I mention it because B-17s didn't only drop bombs in WW2, they dropped parachutists in Asia in the 50s too. Also, the CIA front company mentioned (below) may well have continued work with 727s in the China (ex-Vietnam etc) arena later than the 50s as well. Anyway, the following may be of interest. I emphasise how much earlier than Cooper and even Vietnam the above references show the stuff was being done. Maybe Cooper had been around one of these? This is just an example of operational parachutists in the period between WW2 and Vietnam. (I asked a question a long time ago and didn't get confirmation from anyone about operations in the 1950s...well here it is). The more I search, the more I realise how much bigger the potential pool of Cooper candidates might be... I mean, I'm younger and live the other side of the world, but I had no idea the CIA was involved in dropping agents in Tibet & China in the 50s, for example. The more I search, another thing that comes to light is how ridiculous notions of longstanding conspiracies and cover-ups are. There is so much stuff out there on the net, including stuff that was classified/secret/whatever, there is just too much to believe that any conspiracy beyond a secret held by one or two people would not make it out there. http://www.utdallas.edu/library/collections/speccoll/Leeker/b17.pdf Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

Well Snow, do you have any opinion on which it is? fwiw I never finished that book when i first started reading it years ago..maybe i should try again, Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

I do wish Cook would come on here

Duane didn't have to be physically part of a search team to be looking for him (like most of us here). Sure, maybe he knew Cooper. Or maybe he just got interested in the case. Maybe he got it into his head that Cooper died and the money was out there. Maybe when he said "That's where Cooper walked out the woods" he was supposing so, just as you and others here have said "Cooper did X" as though you know it as fact, when you don't. Maybe he didn't say "i'm" dan cooper but "find" dan cooper cos he wanted you to continue the search...? All looks at least as plausible if not more so than the idea that Duane was Cooper. Yes there are a lot of unexplained things in Duane's life, maybe there is a good story there, but not that he was Cooper. Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

Yet you have consistently implied that the CIA would. how does THAT make sense? Spend a fortune training up all sorts of elite people and then hire an ex con for all sorts of highly secret things? Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

Hm. With 16.7bn cigarettes being sold (mein gott!!) average profiles might mean nothing. But anyway What is a Class C market, is this somewhere else in the doc? I have cut & paste as is, including errors in the original scan, it is still clear: Looks like the coupons would have come in shortly before the hijack: Those from a quick skim - it's late here - goodnight :) Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

Jo, I think Georger is referring to the skull inside Cooper's head, not in an attic. There are other explanations for the trip Duane took you on. Like Sluggo's. Re sunglasses, if these were trendy or whatever at the time... isn't a good place to look images of pop or rock stars of the era? Doors, Led Zep, Stones, etc etc? Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

Depends on how you define waste Orange. Sometimes unfinished urgent personal business gives older people a reason to get up every morning and charge ahead. That has some value. Jo sincerely believes her theories and they cause little harm or bother to us. Sometimes we act a bit unkind to her, but it's Christmas time so let's cut everyone, including Jo, a little extra slack. I have noticed a crack in the armor where Jo is admitting the possibility that Duane was not Cooper but knew Cooper and had access to some of his belongings. Some might call that progress. If The Duane as Cooper thing were a true diagnosable psychiatric obsession she would not admit to any other possibilities, right? Georger? Orange? Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all. We have a lot to look foreward to in 2009 including the National Geographic DB Cooper special. 377 Was Snow who wrote that extract, not me. Point taken about the delusional aspect. Every so often Jo seems to backtrack a bit (immediately after the DNA test on the tie for example, and on the fact that someone else may be Cooper) but then she always seems to go back to she "knows" Duane was Cooper. Echoing 377's seasonal greetings, and adding in a happy Hanukka to those who celebrate it :) Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

The 2016s are a good match Snow, but they have that Ray Ban logo on the side that would have been noted. Maybe he bought some cheap knockoffs. Isn't there a rock song about that? I think it is called "cheap sunglasses." Wish Flo or Tina had noted whether they appeared to have Rx lenses. 377 377, if you are talking about the logo on the side of the frames that is a relatively (vs Cooper) recent addition. My first pair of wayfarers, which i bought in umm 1988 i think, didn't have that. when they got stolen a few years later and i replaced them, the new ones did. I would assume similar for other styles of Ray-Ban. Of course i would expect someone who wears clip-on ties to wear cheap sunglasses too, but others may think i am judging people of the era wrong. Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

My bad. Sluggo's site says Seeing as directly below that was the stewardess descriptions I thought I would add that in. Interesting how for example one described both the suit & shoes as brown, and one described both as black. Makes me wonder how reliable nuances in describing complexion would be from them then? Note that Schaffner specifically says he looked like he was of Latin descent. Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

You must not wear glass or have been around a lot of people who wear glasses. Far Sighted means tha you can see better than the average person things far-away, but things up close such as reading would need adjustment. I am near sighted. I can read and work on my computer without glasses - but watching TV across a room or getting behind the wheel of a car requires glasses. Nature has a way of making temporary adjustments during our lives due to Presmyopia - which is the aging characteristic of the eyes. What this means is the two stages cross and for a period of time a person might not need glasses for whatever purpose they did in the beginning. I know this is true with near- sightness. I don't know if they have this cross-over being Farsighted. Regardless - at age 45 he didn't need glasses for driving - just reading and close work. Farsighted guys make good sharp shooters without glasses, but they need glasses to load the darn thing. Duane was actually drove a lot without his glasses, but then if he had to llok at map he needed his glasses - so he used a bifocal The lower vision was strong - the upper vison needed little corrections even at 68 which is the last time he had his glasses changed. All of his glasses were donated out yrs ago, but I have a copy of his last script. I know exactly what farsighted means. I'm trying to see why it would be an advantage when jumping (especially at night). Farsightedness would probably be detrimental when you are trying to read an alti. And if Duane needed his glasses to load a gun, and for reading, wouldn't he have needed them to write a note? My husband is 42 and has acquired the farsightedness that comes with that age - his eyesight was perfect till a couple of years ago. He needs his glasses for both reading AND writing. Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

Actually I did see that and guessed that is what you were looking at. But come on Jo, MANY people have that expression when they are angry. There is a reason that cartoon caricatures of angry people are drawn like that - like this for example: . Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

In Snow's defense he has I am sure been concentrating on a lot of other things, leads etc as well and not purely on Duane for 13 years. jo, yes the sunglasses look the same (to my untrained eye, i haven't done Snow's intense analysis) but then again you would probably find millions of people had sunglasses like that at that time. I have a picture of my mom (here, "at the bottom of the globe" as snow would say) in sunglasses that look like that around that time. You need to concentrate on what is different to make the case for Duane stick. btw can you please explain exactly why you say Duane being farsighted would have been an advantage to his jump? fwiw the farsghted people i know would generally need their glasses to write notes with. Edited to add: farsighted jumpers please chime in with anecdotes. In particular, how easy it is to read your alti if you are farsighted? Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.