Orange1

These bits have been covered before in various posts, but humor me please. (especially as I made a special effort to spell "humor" in the American way) IIRC, Ckret had theorized that Cooper was a loadmaster. He also thought Cooper's choice of rig was "wrong". Again IIRC, loadmasters (and presumably kickers) were equipped with emergency rigs, not 'normal' rigs. I think it has already been stated that for a loadmaster, the emergency/military rig option makes sense. So if Cooper was a loadmaster (or kicker), the rig choice wasn't "wrong". Maybe the lack of taking a workable reserve with was simply because... the guy had used one of these (NB6s) or similar before without any backup. iow, maybe Cooper's first jump really was when he accidentally fell out either loadmastering people or kicking airdrops. A lot of the fear that first time or newer jumpers have comes from the door - not just what it "represents", but the noise, the feeling, the fear that you will fall out before you are ready. A loadmaster or kicker would have had plenty of experience standing in an open door - even if they had accidentally fallen out once, they would know it was the exception and not the rule. Standing in the door would be quite normal for them. That, especially if coupled with a prior emergency deployment, would certainly take away a significant amount of the fear associated with someone without prior jumping experience. This may (may) have taken some of the "panic" away. I recall only getting sensory overload on my first jump, not any of the subsequent ones. So this is a way of reconciling a novice jumper with a possibly successful deployment. The loadmaster/kicker aspect would also be a reason why Cooper wasn't found on any existing DZs. (Sorry Guru. Hey, where is Guru?) Of course, even with all the above, we still need to account for a possible bounce from a hard pull. We also need to account for Cooper's knowledge that the stairs could be opened in flight. I think 377's point that very few people knew about this is valid and must point to some connection with Boeing or with the tests. I like Happythought's speculation about Canada. It also makes a lot of sense. However - re the airdrop capacity as ordered by the CIA - would they have allowed a non-US citizen to work on this? Then again we don't know how many people may have heard about the airdrop tests. The fact that Cooper knew the stairs could be deployed but appeared to have difficulty doing so implies he knew of it but had not been directly involved himself. So, were there any ex-loadmasters or kickers working for Boeing? Were any of these Canadian? Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

I posted earlier about kickers doing accidental jumps. Here is an accidental airdrop from a 727! in 2005. http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=298052 Marshall Islands gets unscheduled mail drop MAJURO, Dec 22 (AFP) - The Marshall Islands was literally bombarded with air mail when a cargo door popped open on a Boeing 727 as it was taking off from the central Pacific state. Hundreds of pounds (kilos) of letters and packages spilled from the Asia Pacific Airlines plane Wednesday into people's backyards and a lagoon near Majuro International Airport. Majuro airport manager Art Coburn said the plane banked seconds after takeoff and a trail of mail floated from the door. The airport tower radioed to the pilots who immediately banked in the other direction to prevent more mail from falling out of the aircraft. "The latch was locked," Coburn said. "It appears to be a faulty door not an error by the ground or air crew." The mail, some of which was recovered, was from Hawaii and Guam, according to airport officials. The airline carries mail on contract with the US Postal Service through Hawaii, Guam, Marshall Islands and the Federated States of Micronesia. It also carries fresh tuna exports for the sashimi market in Japan, but Coburn said no tuna was lost. Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

Talk of ties got me thinking about the "dress" arguments again. Have a look at the photos in the above link. I suspect they are all posed (strategically placed girls in short shorts and skirts) but the guys are all dressed relatively smartly (by today's standards). Some have ties but not all. I still maintain that from what we know of the era, Cooper's dress (suit and tie) was "normal". (I am assuming the Northwest in November was somewhat cooler than Laos when these pictures were taken..) Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

Then again, kids of that age love digging in the mud. Things do happen by pure chance sometimes! Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

I'm not sure if this has any relevance but I have just discovered the US Airforce has C-22Bs which are in fact Boeing 727s. I'm just wondering if using this term in Google searches may bring up something we haven't found yet. http://usmilitary.about.com/od/cargo/Cargo_Aircraft.htm Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

It's a sore point!! but yes we do get to jump occasionally... Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

Guess what? You're also banned. If you'd like to participate, try using your real account and not hiding behind anonymous ones just to stir up shit. I'd wondered if that would happen. As a matter of interest, after I saw that post I checked the forum rules again and couldn't find the one about posting under multiple aliases - has it been deleted or am I not looking in the right place? (not questioning your right to ban it, it probably falls under the "troll" rules?) I must admit I found it quite... succint, though. Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

Ah, perhaps I should have highlighted this bit from the link on Laos (http://www.air-america.org/...les/Erickson_W.shtml) It's not impossible Cooper got his first jump this way I suppose? Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

Nigeria, Ghana and Tanzania. Visiting those places would give you a tan. Being let go after years of service would give you a grudge. Years in the Canadian army would give you the training. There was one of the Air America vet's links where the person talked about spending time in Africa as well as SE Asia (I can't remember if it was one of the links I posted or just another one I read). Of course, "a bunch of training and no job" applies equally well to US vets returning from Vietnam as well? The thoughts on Canada are interesting. And if someone was from the Northwest, well they could go home and easily go get the money when they needed it, no? Galen Cook's suspect reportedly had a safety deposit box there, right? But it would be as easy for anyone to have one there? Edited to add: This was the link for the guy who spent time in Africa http://www.air-america.org/Articles/Sullivan.shtml, but reading it again I see that it was a private sector not military job. What it does highlight though is that people spent time in "interesting" places that did military service as well. Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

Thanks for the full article, Snow. As alluded to in some of my links, it looks like NWA, Pan Am (and probably others??) were doing at the very least troop transport during the Vietnam war. Maybe some vets can tell us where the main departure points were? Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

See also this thread http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3220566;search_string=ATV;#3220566 for "background" discussion Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

727s and airdrops (I think this is new on this forum, forgive me it it has been posted already)... i can't do a proper C&P of text because the original print quality is bad and it misreads a lot of the letters, but it is about the CIA getting Boeing to increase the ventral exit to improve airdrop capability, though the author notes to his knowledge it was only ever possibly used once for this - but this was in Southeast Asia see p225 (21) of: http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/church/reports/book1/pdf/ChurchB1_11_Proprietaries.pdf SKYJACK file!! Database of skyjacks worldwide. 225 US airlines and 391 non-US. I'll leave it up to someone with Snow's determination to sift through all the data here Some interesting stuff including all the types of planes diverted (even little cessnas make it in there!). Looks like there were 92 incidents involving 727s, which made it by far the most popular type of plane to be hijacked - more than double its nearest "competitor", its predecessor the 707. (I'm assuming these numbers at least partly reflect Boeing's market share!) 6 Northwest Orient planes were hijacked. http://www.library.carleton.ca/ssdata/surveys/doc/iterate-68-77-s-cbk Pan Am also flew R&R (Rest and Recreation) flights during the Vietnam War. These flights carried American service personnel for R&R leaves in Hong Kong, Tokyo, and other Asian cities. http://www.geocities.com/paa_clippers/history.htm This Google bit looked appetizing, about a plane that strayed into Soveit territory while carrying US troops, but you have to register to get the full article... http://www.newspaperarchive.com/LandingPage.aspx?type=nlp&search=%22northwest%20orient%22%20727%20vietnam%20-cooper%20-models&img=\\na0041\6797711\54820214_clean.html As passenger traffic increased with the start of the Vietnam War , Air Viet Nam added aircraft, initially Viscounts, DC-3s, and DC-4s. It eventually obtained more modern aircraft, including Boeing 727s, some of which were obtained from Air France and Pan Am. http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Air_Vietnam Another old Time article from 1967, on Pan Am's commercial and military involvement in Vietnam: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,843485,00.html?iid=digg_share "The secret war in Laos, and how I got there" (interestingly by someone who got laid off from, and then recalled by, NWA!) Talks about airdrops, but not out of 727s... http://www.air-america.org/Articles/Erickson_W.shtml Also on Laos, some interesting photos and then a detailed description on "The CIA’s Airlines: Logistic Air Support of the War in Laos 1954 to 1975" http://laoveterans.8k.com/photo2.html Probably not surprisingly, 727s were also used in evacuations at the fall of Saigon & Da Nang. A number of articles mention this. And also unsurprisingly a number of articles mention Vietnam vets going to work for either Northwest Orient (including pilots) and Boeing after the war. Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

The latest housing bailout is exactly that - the latest, by no means the first. I need to check, but in terms of GDP it may not even be as big as the S&L bailout. Which btw the government ended up making money on, and they may well do the same this time ... I have seen a number of commentators that look at extremely low Treasury yields, very depressed house prices and conclude that it is a no-brainer for the government to use exceptionally cheap funding to buy exceptionally cheap assets and they will make money on this one as well. This is a point of view with which I have a lot of sympathy. But it has nothing to do with DB Cooper, unless it produces more grudge-induced hijackings. Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

Someone mentioned a Northwest Orient plane in the background in a Vietnam photo. 377 also wondered about Vietnamese etc doing drops from a 727. The 2nd photo on this site http://www.jetphotos.net/showphotos.php?airline=Northwest%20Orient%20Airlines mentions a Northwest Orient DC-6 that was leased then sold to Air Vietnam in the 60s. I can't find one that shows the same happening with a 727 but this site probably wouldn't be exhaustive anyway. Does anyone know if Air Vietnam was involved in military stuff during the war? 1967 article from Time talking about China Airlines taking delivery of a 727 and also noting that CAL did charter work in Vietnam "Prior to last week's leap into the jet age, C.A.L.'s coffers were filled chiefly by the wages of war." Of course if a Chinese 727 was subsequently used for drops we would probably never find out? http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,836985,00.html? Someone describing his army in Vietnam years, beginning by being flown there by a Northwest Orient 727: http://nekesc.org/~bdarrah/HomepagePic/TheArmyVietnamYears.htm Seeming to confirm Northwest Orient planes were used for the military (althoug again it just looks like personnel transport): "We departed on a commercial aircraft, ..., Northwest Orient I think it was, configured for military which means that it had an extra row of seats on it..." http://74.125.77.132/search?q=cache:OKFCCm177KAJ:www.vietnam.ttu.edu/star/images/oh/oh0066/OH0066.pdf+%22northwest+orient%22+727+vietnam&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=81&gl=za (note re this URL, I could not access the PDF files but could get the html version... it is pretty long and there may be other interesting stuff in there but right now I do not have time to read the whole thing) An incidental: (from Salon.com) 1974: A man detonates two grenades aboard an Air Vietnam 727 when the crew refuses to fly him to Hanoi. And then this is just of general interest, a history of Boeing including its work on military applications, though they do not mention the 727 in a military context http://www.referenceforbusiness.com/history2/25/The-Boeing-Company.html Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

Was it Zing pointed out general lack of goggles in those days? Snow, fyi even these days students do not need to wear goggles when doing SL (unless they have contact lenses). Some DZs do not even make them wear jumpsuits. More experienced jumpers doing hop'n'pops will often do them sans goggles, helmet and jumpsuit too. (None of these are out of 727s, obviously.) 377, I know when I did SL they packed the rigs to open faster because of the subterminal opening. Do you know if this was done on rounds in the old days? Do you have any thoughts (i know this is conjecture) as to whether SL rigs for a 727 would have been packed differently to account for the airspeed at opening? (I'm just wondering if jumps done out of 727s would have been with differently packed chutes that may not negate the concerns about an immediate opening. Assuming Cooper could deal with Cossey's hard pull of course.) Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

Someone quoted Popeye - not sure if that is the same as "starting" the Popeye "business". I note none of the allusions to King Lear etc by the same person were seen as "starting" anything (other than a bit of thread drift) Yes I know Popeye, (enough to know that Olive Oyl is spelt with a Y, not an I) I guess cartoon characters are becoming quite appropriate for this thread. Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

OMG. First we had the "mouse" stuiff, now... Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

No, he is avoiding us and our questions. The FBI WON'T investigate the Hendrix link, and we have asked them to. It must be a cover-up! Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

I don't remember that, but in the FOIA files there is some magazine that ran a story where they interviewed Cooper... Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

er, Snow? wrong Jim... Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

Of COURSE! and "Hey Jo, where you going with that gun in your hand..." You're right, 377. All the signs are there, if you just look for them. Now if we can just find out who Mary was, the last pieces of the puzzle will fall into place. Ckret, it is the FBI's job to investigate this! Who was Mary and what was her connection? "The wind cries Mary" is a clear analogy to a jump. It cannot be interpreted any other way. The cherry on top of course was Hendrix faking his death about a year before the hijacking - what better way to eliminate yourself from a suspect list? Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

Yes he has, but he has also stated he doesn't think Jo's story is what she thinks it is. I guess this leaves Jo somewhat conflicted as to what she should "allow" Sluggo to do. (To please Snow, let's note that Hamlet was also conflicted.) btw 377, I do think you are right in focussing on Cooper's knowledge of the airstairs. Whether this is a Boeing connection or arises from a military application remains an open question though. (Forgive me, but I cannot remember if we drew a conclusion about 727s being used in the military.) Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

no not that quote, the snakes on a plane one! (i just assumed it was from the movie?) as in "i'm sick of these m...... snakes on this m...... plane!" (my favourite line from the movie ) hm, can we get Samuel Jackson to play Cooper in the movie version? we can just, um, exaggerate the "olive complexion" bit. after all, in shawshank redemption morgan freeman took the part of someone who in the novella was a red-headed irishman... Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

The transcript did say "...plane on the road". Snow, are you sure that quote is verbatim? No f-words? Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.