AlexCrowley

Adam gave Junior a piggyback ride to the clinic, his heart heavy. Relieved that his son was too young to understand the potential turmoil if the blood test results bore out his suspicions. TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

Jerry couldnt shake the sneaking suspicion that he had been outwitted as he desperately tries to start his motorcycle. TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

somewhat related but I thought it needed saying. My wife comes to the DZ with me every weekend, she's doing her AFF next year, but learns what she can on the ground. She's always been embarassed when asked how many jumps she has. Her traditional answer has been a sheepish "only 2 tandems", one of the coaches at the dropzone responded "it's never "ONLY", you have two jumps".

TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

abso-fucking-lutely. TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

Mods, please understand the next is not a threat, nor is one implied. Veter, I would be more than happy to have you come up to our dojo here and do some training with you. From your posts it seems obvious that you're someone who thrives on asking questions, gaining new knowledge and is always open to people's ideas and opinions, especially those whom you could consider a mentor or veteran. As such you may be just the person needed to bridge the gap between my skills in bumping and your skydiving expertise. While I build up my jump numbers we can work on a crash course of bump training that every pupil here at the school goes through. With dilligence you could learn what I'm talking about in the space of 4 or 5 training sessions. After learning these skills we'll put them to the test by having Psycho Mike and Brutal Bob Evans (both 6 6+ and 250lb+) assist you by providing the momentum you'll need to take brief flight and land unharmed.........or on your head, its a lot like freefall, you have to also learn how to move your body in midair so you dont snap your neck when things go out of control. The offer remains open whenever you're ready, if ever you're in Rhode Island. TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

Bill, I know you know what you're talking about, but I've tried to explain about my thoughts on terrain, sliding into home on a baseball field would seem very different than sliding in on a rough part of the LZ ....there are areas of my home LZ that I would be tempting a severe breakage sliding in due to uneven ground, small shrubs etc etc. I do understand where you're going with this and what you're saying, and I am not dismissing the techniques that are traditional lifesavers. Perhaps I should have started this conversation talking about enhanced PFL-type techniques. Edited to add: I really didnt think I was suggesting anything revolutionary. But it does kinda suck when people with 4000 jumps are telling you that you're wrong ;0) TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

ok, here's my very limited experience with how a PLF feels verses a regular bump of equal intensity. If you only know a PLF then I'm sure its the absolute safest bet for you, far more safe than trying anything that I'm talking about without taking some martial arts lessons and spending serious drill time learning them. Ok, basic math time...urm...25 years.....average 3 sessions per week.............conservative 20 bumps per session, 10 years sickdays, vacations, parenting - urm,.....46,800 bumps....damn, no wonder I'm broken :) Hmm. I know 4 basic ways to minimize impact (more, but they're mostly just modifications of the first 4). So I've practiced each technique approximately 11.7k times. That's quite a bit more practice than an afternoon leaping off a table to get the PLF technique down. Reason PLF makes me nervous? starting at the feet and working your way up, by definition means that your head is near the intended final body area to absorb the energy, rolling across your shoulders/back dissipates energy but in an uncontrolled situation I would find that an unacceptable risk. It would seem that I am more likely to be able to control the first moment of a fall (the instant of impact) and therefor get my head out of the equation as soon as possible (or does that make no sense to anyone but me? I'm willing to accept being totally wrong---maybe). I base this on landing on uneven ground and not always being totally in control of the situation for the perfectly timed PLF - especially if you're having to perform the little twist to catch the right plf angle. Reason sliding in makes me nervous? Yeah, the thigh will protect you, but as any one who's spent time in a canvas ring practicing baseball slides will tell you: its that one time where your shoe gets caught on a seam (or say for example, a tuft of dirt/grass in a landing field) that it jams your leg and snaps it in half...or slightly less noisy but as painful, tears your various knee tendons and ligaments to shreds - happens way more often than you'd imagine in a ring. Again, that doesnt mean I'll not slide a landing in but there are certain qualifications to taking that action. first and foremost gauging how much skill its going to take to avoid being broken. BTW, in a high speed landing I"m not sure I want my feet slapping the ground to bleed off any excess inertia, when they 'slap the ground' on a less than perfect surface you're again risking your ankle, knee, shin continuing movement after your legs have stopped - if youre on uneven ground.. Excess inertia probably accounts for 90% of my wariness about traditional PLF technique in higher speed landings. Additionally, we talk about the differences in flying over certain terrain, but not many about the different types of landing terrain. My approach on a grassy field is never going to be the same as a freshly ploud field, or a recently harvested one full of stalks. Maybe I'm just going too far ahead of myself, for which I apologize. Veter, you may be an awesome skydiver......urm....... you may be a skydiver, but from your comments I'd imagine that your experience was either very limited or non-existent. As far as intensity of falls in my current experience, other than being nearly killed during training too many times to count. The last time I took a fall at 5mph was when I was 10, or when I was teaching the student how to perform the technique. Mostly I'm getting bounced around by guys who are twice my bodyweight and think its fun to toss around the little guy as hard, high and fast as they possibly can - it looks better they say, but I think it's just because they can. jtlmd..........ahh one of the secrets of prowrestling......hmm pay attention to the move when its done and you can work it out I think. The far more valuable secrets are 1) it isnt as fake as you think it is, 2) it hurts..a lot, when you start wrestling your body breaks down by microfracturing bones, which then reheal stronger - first 3 months is excrutiating and then your body aclimatizes - most schools have a 95% dropout rate during the breakdown period. See? Fascinating behind the scenes info Wendy, I understand what you're saying, and I'm not trying to reject the PLF as a method of landing (hell, in a situation I think it'll work I'll use it before anything else), Mostly Im thinking aloud, mostly I remain unconvinced of its universal utility as "THE OFFICIAL PLF" when the flight characteristics of canopies have altered. Sure, new techniques are not something you can bang out easily in an afternoon, but neither was learning stability and movement in freefall. Neither was I rejecting the 'slide it in philosophy', there are situations where this would be a natural reaction. I guess my inquiry is only that I believe that there may be other tools that skydivers could put to use and reduce the risk of injury even further if 1) they realized there were additional options, 2) someone was willing to translate their experience to teach it. Yes, I have only 20 jumps. I sincerely believe that I know a don't know a damn thing about flying a canopy. But I have approx 46000 landings, and I think it may be fair to consider one or two of those as being a transferrable skill.

I understand what you're saying here, in slower landings I can totally see the value in this sort of move. In addition, I'm not claiming to be an expert at skydiving or PLFs or trying to discredit many years of experience that everyone here has had with the technique. Just consider this an intellectual exercise for someone who's spent the last 24 years taking a variety of impacts from various angles, heights and intensitys. Like most people who've been in a combat sport the majority of your early training is avoiding injury from impact with the ground, much like the paratroopers training. As a wrestler I learnt another 8 or 9 methods to absorb 'bumps'. We get the insinctual 'put your hands out to stop yourself' out of our systems and then spend hundreds of hours putting those techniques into practice. In addition, I've practiced PLF techniques off the top turnbuckle of a wrestling ring many times to test my theory (hey, I had to do something in the off season). Instead of simply stepping off I would leap forward in an attempt to simulate coming in at various speeds and then try to do an 'as taught' PLF. A turnbuckle places you about 5' above ground, with jump probably coming down from 6' - a little more intense than my current landing experiences. So this experience is where the rest of my conversation comes from, please do not take it as a 'know it all attitude' as it is simply my desire to totally understand different viewpoints. Additionally, I will discuss all these responses and thoughts with my coaches and vets at my DZ for further insight. A standard PLF takes all your energy, displaces it in the order that you've said, with it eventually finishing up around your shoulder/head area. A PLF sideways is the only real safe way. My current high speed "PLF- Crowley Style" with plenty of forward motion is simply one of economy of movement and reduction of my chance of injury. While the PLF is designed to accept and dissipate downward movement, it cannot absorb a great deal of lateral movement. While the feet, shin, knee, thigh, hip , side are nice and flat any undissipated movement will whiplash the neck, risking a head/neck injury (as the energys natural path is out through the top of your head). Turning before hitting the ground and PLFing stops downward movement but does nothing to dampen any horizontal movement - yes, I banged my head a few times, whiplash seems pretty likely in that situation - of which I'm quite familiar :) Turning as you hit (trying to spin on the balls of your feet) requires timing and co-ordination (thought) and increases chances of sprains and tendon pulls/tears in your knees, again due to the additional horizontal movement pushing you forward/sideways as well as down. On a flat surface this would be a concern, on a rough field more so, this in addition to the head/neck risk above. The roll over method I used is a basic move that anyone with more than a few days of judo/karate training knows well, by taking both downward and, in our case more importantly, forward movement and dissipating them. By rolling you have created a longer energy 'muffler'. In a similar position to start the PLF you simply accept the foward motion and roll, tucking your head to oneside (protecting head and neck from impact), then hitting the ground with shoulder, trap muscles, hip/butt/thigh back to feet. This avoids any whiplash, doesnt rely on careful timing to move to one side or the other, and allows you to absorb much greater amounts of energy and inertia because you're not driving that energy downwards into the ground but moving it forward through the air , so if there's anything left your feet slap the ground a little harder rather than your head. I figured it was just me, I really asked about this stuff since I'd never seen it in skydiving books until last week. Hopefully the expanded version of this will clarify what I'm trying to say. Again, this isnt meant to disrespect anyones knowledge or experiences, only to try and bring another idea into the light. TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

Yes, yes, OUT THERE. Not here, nope never. Move along. Look OUT THERE. TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

A 4 year old Ibook? Luddites. TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

Bill, Bill, Bill, come on lad, you and I both know that there is such a thing as having too much freedom. Settle down. TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

Um, Condi Rice may run. HOLY SHIT A FUCKING BLACK WOMAN RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT!!!!!!! ok, the FCC needs to step in NOW. There is no way that WE should EVER stand for someone with a vagina trying to gain power! Fucking liberal hippy buttfuckers in hollywood trying to bring down the PRESIDENCY with Tampons and Babies. Stop with your liberated bra burning ideals and get back into the kitchen Bitches!!!!!!! I want less women on tv in smart professional roles, more tits, more sluts dancing around poles. God, next they'll think they have the balls to jump out of planes. [This message bought to you by J0nes, Crowley, the letter sexism and the number misogyny] TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

.............yeah, sure. uh, nope. Never met one. TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

Used to, now in the US. Janes is known worldwide if you have a hankering for intelligence and unbiased military news in the mainstream. I like Janes because its a useful tool to verify the more insane places I've culled info from in the past. For instance, www.almartinraw.com has an archive of news stories. If you were to subscribe (since the bastard went subscription only, which is when i stopped reading him). Al Martin was one of the players in Iran Contra, his revenge was to start a whistleblower website. This site had evidence of a war in Afghanistan as early as February of 2001. TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

What kind of security tools/protocols/standards do you know? What kind of system development do you do? 13 years of too much to list. I like playing in *nix land because its fun. I own all security, business assets to system particulars. In a nutshell, I secure it, I monitor it, and I work with federal agencies if you try to break it. For software I work with developers to ensure that security is included in the initial design so as to avoid an ugly and brutal bolt-on effort sometime later once you've had your first intrusion or two. Some of that is basic dev techniques, some is less basic secure design principles. Others out there with an interest will understand what I mean when I say that everythign in life is just a system, once you can recognize a system you look for ways that people would exploit it, then you look for ways to defend against that exploit. Ad nauseum. Anything, buildings, systems, cars, even people, are vulnerable to exploitation. Some of the best security hacks dont even involve technology. TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

Janes (The open source magazine for intelligence and warfare) had this story in March 2001: http://www.janes.com/security/international_security/news/jir/jir010315_1_n.shtml On the subject of Janes Janes Terrorism Links Good stuff, these are the guys that the media go to for context (if you live in a country where background story is considered important). TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

Sounds cool. Lemme know if anyone needs a security architect/systems dev guy. TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

Do you believe this was a response to 9/11? Were you aware that this was something that was public knowledge that the US was planning a september offensive as early as June 2001? Just so you dont think its Bush bashing, it started with Clinton. Look into the history of the Taliban securing the oil pipeline for more information. TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

I took Thursday off work and did my Catagory G dives and had a great time. This Friday I have Scott (someones) canopy course which brings me to 25 jumps and some confidence, saturday I'm hoping to bang out cat H (as if!). So close. soooooooooo close. Another couple of weeks and I should have my rig back in my sweaty hands. then things get fun. TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

Good grief, grow up hippy! take a look at the map, they're right next door! Some people just can't think think things through. TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

yeah I like that last jump a lot! I guess I"ll have to do the frantic tapping thing TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

It's like the difference between 'finding WMDS' and finding 'evidence of a WMD program'. TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

HAH! A.D.D! No wonder we kept going in circles! TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.