377

Good point Orange. You'd have to have been a 727 crew member or someone other than the first to exit to know about the pressure event. I think an exit point spoof is VERY unlikely, but Cooper's chute is out there somewhere. They find money and even a door placard, but no canopy or rig. That suggests they might have been looking in the wrong place... but then there is that damed money find that brings me back to reality. My bet is that the Air America 727 jumps were on the grapevine shortly after they occured and were eventually known by many in the SE Asia war zone and beyond. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

First, great to see you back in the hood Twardo! I think the flight was chosen for a big expanse of suitable drop area traversed shortly after take off. By giving the crew a destination that dictated a certain flight direction, arrival over the "DZ" could be roughly confirmed just by exit timing, no need for precise navigation. I think McCoy selected his flight because he knew the area it covered and had a roughly defined "DZ" picked out. I think Cooper used the same logic. You not only need a decent landing area, you need viable egress paths and civilization nearby. Landing in the middle of the Mojave Desert (CA) or Ruby Marsh (NV) would not be optimal. An accomplice waiting on the ground with a car is a great idea, but your chances of landing near your accomplice in the pre GPS era are very very low. A boat pickup would be a novel idea but even harder to coordinate. Radios could help a pickup, but there is no evidence that Cooper had one. I know we have the pressure bump, but what if Cooper exited a hundred miles or more from where we think he did? His body could be in a place where nobody has looked. The pressure bump is compelling evidence as to when the exit occurred, but could Cooper have spoofed it? What if he gave a big bounce at the bottom of the stairs but didn't exit, climbed back up the stairs and exited much later going over the side of the stairs nearer the fuselage? Perhaps he climbed back up after the bounce and made a leap rearward from near the top of the stairs where the moment arm would cause far less stair deflection than going all the way to the bottom. All this is unlikely, but would it allow a much later exit that went undetected by the crew? The Tena Bar money find argues against all this exit spoof speculation and Occams razor says (to me) that the money find was legit, but my street smarts still smell a rat. Tom, whats up with your analysis? 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Hmmm, that actually might have worked. Now that long haired hippie jumpers are persons of interest half the old timers who post here are now prime suspects. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Your Dad must have had a looooong flight from AK to FLA. The "dollar noneteen" (C 119) was no speed demon with the gear retracted. Gear down I'll bet there were some speeding cars that outpaced it as it flew over some isolated strectches of highway. Somewhere online, perhaps on dropzone.com, there is a riverting true story about a civilian C 119 that ran into serious trouble (engine fire?) in AK. One of the crew bailed out really low and the pilots crash landed the plane successfully. Nobody who flew, crewed or wrenched USAF or USMC C 119s ever refers to them as great planes. C 119 air tanker pilots were not overly fond of them either. The govt stopped contracting with C 119 fire tankers over safety concerns leaving HEMET Aviation in CA with a fleet of now useless tankers. Opinions differ though. A few civilian 119s crashed in AK but AFAIK nobody ever died in one. My friend in AK who works on the two at Palmer loves them. http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/c-119.htm The late model 119s had the same basic engine as Lockheed Connies, the Wright R 3350, which was a tempermental high strung animal demanding very careful handling all the time. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Being a local and having easily traceable military connections to parachuting and to Ft Lewis, I just cannot see Gossett doing the crime without a disguise. From all we can tell, Cooper had no major disguise. Whoever Cooper was, he made a safe bet that his acquaintances would not ID him from the sketches that he knew would be prepared from witness descriptions. That is a clue and to me it says he was not a local, and perhaps was even foreign domiciled. We don't talk much about the lack of a disguise, but it is a major issue and tells us something. Either Cooper didn't care if he was later ID'd or he did care but knew that the chances were very low. What did he GAIN by having no disguise? I mean why not use one? 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Come on Jo. Give Sluggo the green light. Let's see what he presents. If you are interested in presenting the whole truth, not just carefully selected tidbits, you have no good reason to decline. Truth which is "managed" is not truth. Stop managing. Don't mistake my firmness for rancor. I still have a lot of sympathy for you and will always treat you cordially. The time has come, however, to stop playing poker here. Show your cards. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Jo, When called to task for withholding evidence you now say the evidence (a pair of watches) couldn't possibly have contained samples of Duane's DNA. Uhhhh... OK, but that's not what was initially implied IMHO. If you wish to defend yourself against my accusation of game playing and teasing (note I have not said lieing) then simply give Sluggo an unequivocal green light to present what he thinks may be relevant. Given his demonstrated integrity you can't credibly claim that you can't trust him to be discreet or respect third party privacy concerns. Just give him the green light right here and right now. Until then my accusation stands and no slack will be deserved or given. The ball is in your court Jo. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Jo, How can you say you trusted the system????? That is designed to engender sympathy and is demonstrably incorrect. You wouldn't even trust the FBI with a watch and withheld it even though it might have held relevant DNA evidence. You call that "trusting the system"? If so the we define trust very differently. I am becoming more like Orange in how I deal with you, giving you no slack. In many ways your complaints about the FBI could be credibly made by the FBI about you. You have been playing cat and mouse with them just as much as they have with you. I have never called you a liar and I think Duane did confess to being Dan Cooper. I think you are biased and obsessed, but absolutely sincere. I have noticed your efforts to be more cordial and it would sure be nice if everyone reciprocated. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

I am glad you see some value in Jo's participation Georger. I agree that she is looking for gold in a coal mine, but I really think she is sincere in her beliefs. I do believe the alleged death bed confession was made, but I just think it was another of many lies Duane had told over the years. It might have been aided by pain drugs which blurred the lines between who he was and who fascinated him. As time passes and Jo has to stretch harder and harder to link Duane to NORJACK (note she is now pursuing fire fighting links more than parachuting links), it should occur to her that it is a dead end, yet she continues with no signs of doubt. Jo has become much more cordial to us and we should return the courtesy. She is entitled to her ideas just as much as we are to ours. In her dogged pursuit of "Duane is Cooper" evidence, she may uncover useful info so I still welcome her presence. I have been communicating with Galen Cook and he remains confident about Gosset. Gosset did have Ft Lewis connections, provable military parachute training, money trouble, local knowledge etc. None of that proves he was Cooper but it makes him a person of interest. I can't see why Gosset, a local, would do NORJACK without a disguise. Gosset's Cooper confessions also seem odd in that if they were true they heightened his risk and he got nothing tangible in return. Was it an ego thing? Telling a former judge that you are a wanted felon is risky as hell. I have been reading about the famous and controversial alleged sighting of an Ivory Billed Woodpecker which was assumed to be extinct for over half a century. There is a lot about it on the Cornell University website. http://www.birds.cornell.edu/ivory There are aspects of that matter that parallel the Cooper case. Experts swear they saw one. A video they took shows evidence that what they saw was indeed what they claimed it was, yet all subsequent searches including extensive use of robotic cameras have failed to turn up any unequivocal corroborating evidence. Where did Cooper go? Where did the Ivory Billed Woodpecker go? Is there a Twilight Zone? Can Bruce link the Woodpecker case to a CIA experiment? (just kidding Bruce). 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Jo, Before you spend money hiring a lawyer to obtain Duane's FBI records, try this: http://foia.fbi.gov/foia_instruc.htm This is exactly the same procedure that a lawyer would use. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Bruce, We sure see Occam's razor differently. I think MKULTRA is one of the least likely explanations for all the Cooper's, some of whom may have actually believed their false confessions. I do agree with your assessment of the veracity of Cook, the Formans and even Jo. Truthful people can believe the lies of others and adopt them as the truth. It happens all the time in cults. I disagree with a lot of your imaginative Cooper theories, but they are only presented as theories so why should they piss anyone off? You do think out of the box. I had always assumed that there was only one Cooper, but your mind control theory raises the possibility, however unlikely, that there may be several brainwash victims who truly believe they did the NORJACK hijacking and jump. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

yeah, or that :) does anyone know if bailout rigs for pilots were mandatory back then by the way? They had pilot bail out rigs at my DZ in 68. They didnt buy ANYTHING unless it was required. They'd have flown planes without annual inspections if it was legal and probably used unlicensed pilots too. It was all about maximum altitude and minimum price back in the day. FAA rules were seen as parasitic drag and we have the crashes to prove it. I was on this plane but jumped at 8500 ft. The pilot then descended for his fatal buzz job. I have nightmares about that horrible crash even today, decades after it occurred. http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief.asp?ev_id=67768&key=0 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

It puzzles me too SKYWHUFFO. I made over 100 round jumps and two of them were VERY hard pulls on rental gear, a 28 ft sleeved C9 crammed into a very tight unextended surplus container. Scary as hell and unlike Cooper, I had a reserve. Back in the day there was no AFF. They tossed you out and it was up to you to teach yourself freefall stability. I tumbled wildly in every axis before I finally got the knack. It was so discouraging and frightening. Trying to manage a hard pull while tumbling and screaming past your hard deck is something you never forget. You become obessed with pulling, making the damned thing work. You focus on it with incredible intensity, shutting out all other thoughts. I should have just gone to my reserve but there is something about the situation that erases rational assessment. Many jumpers without AADs have gone in as no pulls, fighting a balky main deployment system right into the ground. Sometimes in their panic, they fixate on the wrong item to pull and go in pulling wildly at webbing rather than a ripcord handle or pilot chute hackey. Why anyone would pack a really hard pull on a bailout rig baffles me. Maybe the rigger was the typical jumpship owner hiring a kid pilot for peanuts who is trying to build time. imagined dialogue: "Kid, the FAA says I have to provide you with a bailout rig, and I have, but it is packed so tight that you will not have enough strength to pull and deploy it. So kid, I hope you get the picture. You WILL fly my Cessna back to the DZ, no matter what. Do we understand each other?" 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Jo, You are ALWAYS holding something back, in this case perhaps better DNA samples because you didn't trust the FBI with Duane's valuable watches. Good grief! What holdback revelation is coming next? The FBI was supposed to bring genetic analysis lab gear to your house? Give me a break. How do you expect to be taken seriously? What makes you so sure the watches really belonged to Duane? By your own admission he was a thief, even taking better coats than the ones he left in cloakrooms when you two went out to dine. Why didn't you stop him? Show me a thief with a good watch and usually somewhere there is a theft victim. Thieves rarely buy good watches at retail establishments. Does it ever strike you as ironic that you feared the FBI would steal watches that Duane probably stole from others? I always cut you some slack and treat you cordially, but this endless teasing and partial disclosure really detracts from your credibility and tries my patience. Just stop it and show your cards Jo, ALL of them. Sluggo went waaaay out of his way to help you put all your relevant evidence out for public review, but predictably, you didn't come through. Being the true southern gentleman that he is, he just held his tongue and let you continue your tired and predictable routine. I would not have been nearly as charitable after making such an effort. I gotta admire Sluggo's unswerving integrity under such trying circumstances. Put Duane in a chute or jumpship. If you can't, it is probably because he never had anything to do with parachute operations, not because of some spook agency coverup. Occam's razor applied to Duane says crook, convict and con man but not jumper and not Cooper, at least not based on any evidence you or anyone else has produced. You have permanently alienated so many on this forum, from Sluggo to Ckret to Georger to Orange to Jerry and many others but not me, at least not yet. Everybody has their limits though and you are pushing them. Still, I welcome your posts Jo and still think you are absolutely sincere in your obsessive belief that Duane was Cooper or was directly involved with him. I even think he did confess to being Dan Cooper on his death bed. I just don't think he actually was Cooper or was associated with him. That's where we disagree. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Man, sure would love to have that civililan C 119 (Georgia Box) in my jump log. Come on, tell us the story. My rarest jumpship was the ATL 98 Carvair at Rantoul. Still no Connie jump but hoping for a miracle. Somebody on dropzone.com paid a Soviet AF pilot to let him jump from a TU 95 Bear, kinda their B 52. This may be the all time rarest coolest jumpship logged by anyone. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-95 A few on here also jumped from a civilian C 97 in Southern CA. http://www.flyingboxcar.com/ I have not given up hope of eventually jumping from a C 119. These two Boxes are dormant but flyable in AK. My friend Lars Gleitsmann is connected to these two planes and has worked on them for years. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Good point about carabiners in 1971. I first saw one in 1968 but only because I had a college friend who was a rock climber. I saw it as a neat substitute for shackles on commercial fishing gear which are closed with a threaded bolt. Now carabiners are used widely on gillnet gear and anywhere else where a quick connect/disconnect feature is important on a moderately loaded rig. The climbing type are strong, but not strong enough for heavy trawl gear. I can't say that I was the first to use them on commercial fishing gear but they were not common in 68 outside of rock climbing. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Thanks for the Cossey info Georger. I understand that the non functional reserve was a ground training aid, but what was the intended use of an NB 6 overstuffed with a 28 ft C9 that may have been a nearly impossibly hard pull? Why do a really hard overstuffed pack job when you could just put foam in it if it was intended for a similar use as the non functional reserve? It is really dangerous to have non functional emergency gear that looks functional. The Coast Guard will write you a citation if you have non functional life saving gear (such as a survival suit with a damaged zipper or open seam) aboard an inspected vessel even of you also have the required types and quantities of fully functional gear. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Sorry for the mixup Orange. It was Nitro who posted it. He is a professional parachute engineer and works with specilized chutes which deal with huge loads... so I'd definitely be interested in the basis of his carabiner opinion. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Orange Maybe you are referring to the weak carabiners sold in hardware stores. The kind climbers use can carry VERY heavy shock and static loads. We used them in commercial fishing rigging with zero problems. I tested one by clipping together links about a foot apart on a continuous anchor chain. We set the anchor and backed down hard. No problem if it broke as the chain would still be intact. The device had no problem holding the load, just some slight deformation. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

ALL about C 82 PACKETS: http://www.c82packet.com/ There was one of these C 82 beasts based at the Santa Monica CA airport in the early 80s when I lived nearby. It looked like a derelict but once in a great while it would fire up and fly away. It was used to transport helicopters according to an old airport guy who kept track of such things. It had a jet mod, one engine mounted on top of the fuselage. A friend of mine, now deceased, snagged a contract to fly a bunch of refurbed ex USAF C 119s from the Fairchild factory to Italy via Bangor Maine. He and his buddies lied and claimed mucho time in C 119s when in reality none had ever flown one although they had thousands of hours in other heavy prop transports. They poured over manuals for weeks sweating it out. Their first C 119 flight was transatlantic. The delivered all of them to the Italian AF and made good bucks. He said it was the noisiest plane he had ever flown in. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Thanks for the info Nitrochute. Those differences in pack volumes are huge. It's easy to forget that surface area goes up as a square with increasing radius. Sure sounds like a VERY hard pull to me if there was a 28 ft C9 canopy in an unextended NB6 container, although it would be great to have it actually assembled and measured. Why on Earth would Cossey pack such a bailout rig that might not be useable? What is the explanation for that? 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Georger, You and Jerry and others see Jo as malevolent. I just don't. She just doesn't get me spun up. I think she teases, is blind to evidence against her hypothesis, stubborn, obsessed, but not a bad scheming malicious person. Just my opinion. I know you disagree and see me as naive. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Jo, Do you have info that smoke jumpers made free fall ripcord pull jumps in the 1940s or at any time? That is something I did not know. I though all their jumps were S/L. 377 oh come on, it is a load of bollocks that "conditions" make free fall more suitable than static line. Seriously I get pissed as ignorance dressed in arrogance - not directed at you 377. This is the kind of media based misrepresentation of facts, where student jumpers (static line) are not allowed to jump, but experienced jumpers are (free fall) therefore 2+2 = 10 and static line can't be used in certain conditions. Yeah Nigel99, it made no sense to me, but I thought Jo might have been quoting from some smoke jumper history site and I wanted to see the source. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

I do believe Jo when she says that as Duane was dieing, he confessed to being Dan Cooper, but I think it was likely just one of his many lies. It is sad that this possibility is not seriously considered by Jo after all these years of dead ends in trying to put Duane in a chute. Instead of doubting that Duane was really Cooper based on EVERYONE's (hers, ours, FBI's) inability to find supportive evidence, Jo flips it and says that the FBI's failure to prove that Duane was not Cooper is itself evidence pointing towards Duane being Cooper. Go figure. With that logic Jo will toil forever. Still, I welcome her posts and admire her gumption, but not her logic. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Jo, Do you have info that smoke jumpers made free fall ripcord pull jumps in the 1940s or at any time? That is something I did not know. I though all their jumps were S/L. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.