377

If you've been working on a skydiving story for as long as you have and don't automatically associate with Fort Bragg, NC, then you really haven't been doing your research. Frankly, I'm surprised. There is a Ft Bragg CA too, a lumber mill and commercial fishing town on the Mendocino coast. The mill shut down a few years back and the Feds have closed the commercial salmon season for the second year in a row. Hard times up there. Wonder why there are so many Ft Braggs? Odd. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Good post Georger. Welcome back. Hope we can contnue in the spirit your post offers. If we do, Snow might come back. I do wonder if Billy W was checked out by the FBI. Even if he wasn't Cooper, he would have made a great Cooper. That, coupled with his Cooper lookalike looks, should have put him on someone's radar. Sometimes I wonder if Quade isn't right and that Cooper was a rank amateur in waaaay over his head. Our searches may lead us to the ideal Cooper, not necessarily the real Cooper. That's because we know a lot about what he did and we look for links to those actions. We know almost nothing about who he was so we have little personal stuff to pursue other than his appearance. I have to constantly remind myself that Cooper may have had nothing to do with SE Asia covert air ops or smoke jumping or even skydiving. The Quade Cooper is that Cooper. My Cooper (reflecting bias not logic) is a trained jumper at the very least and a Billy W type at the most. Which Cooper would Occam choose? 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Wish we could have a solution to the Snowmman vs Georger and Jo split. Snow adds so much value, I just hate to see him depart. Any ideas? 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Note the salutation: Mam. Ring a bell? I missed it, but one far wiser than I did not. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

My reason for doubting that Billy is Cooper isn't fear of him snapping me with a towel or even trying something worse. I just think the real Cooper would keep a very low post crime profile, especially if he matched the FBI drawings, and you can hardly say that about Billy. He has drawn a lot of attention to himself and his Cooper relevant skills. Why would you act like Billy acts if you were really Cooper? Well, you could argue that it makes perfect sense since it casts doubt on you being Cooper and you can go around in circles forever. I would love to see what Flo or any other reachable eyewitness says about his photo. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

What does everyone think about Billy W's resemblance to the FBI sketches? Sluggo? Safe? Snow? Orange? Others? I thought Gosset was a pretty good match but I must say Billy blows him away on likeness, at least to my eye. Of course we have no evidence that Billy had any involvment in NORJACK but few could dispute that he could have pulled it off. Sounds a lot easier than some combat jumps he had already made. To put it all in perspective, I have little confidence that the FBI sketches resemble Cooper. I have seen too many criminal cases where the sketches turned out to be waaaay off even though witnesses said they were good (before the culprit was caught). Is there anything in the way of appearance, physical traits or alibis that rules Billy out? I really doubt he was Cooper but it is quite something to find a guy with all this relevant training and experience and then have him match the sketch so well. I can't be the only person marvelling at this coincidence. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

I had forgotten all that stuff about the cunning Mrs McCoy Snow. She appears to have been quite a piece of work as they say. Glad I didn't run into her after my divorce. My jet jump might not have been a recreational one if she was in the picture. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

It takes a lot to get admitted inpatient to a VA psych hospital if that's where he went. It was either some real bad stuff he was going through or a clever ruse to make up a PTSD defense if he got caught after the hijack. Was mental illness even raised at his trial? Flying combat rescue missions in Nam was harrowing to say the least. I wonder if McCoy's crime was partially a result of mental trauma. He sure didnt go on a spending spree after the crime. Didnt they recover all but ten dollars? It is a tragedy that a guy with no prior criminal history and who gave so much of himself for his country would die in a hail of FBI bullets. It should have turned out so differently for him. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Gee Snow, I thought these Elsinore hotshots saw raw talent where others saw a low skills wannabe RW flyer. You popped my balloon. Just kidding... I think they picked me cause they knew if I qualified for the SCR award I was buying beer and it was a sunset jump. When I came back to my home DZ with an SCR patch, people who knew me wondered if I had swiped it from a real RW jumper. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Sometimes wishful thinking is a good thing. I was very low on RW skills in the 70s when I somehow got onto a big (15?) way jump at Elsinore jumping from their DC 3. I had never hooked up with more than two other people before and it took thousands of feet and many tentative approaches. Well, I pulled it off thanks to a lot of help from others and got my SCR award. Was I qualified for the jump? NO WAY. It was strictly a "maybe he'll pull it off" situation and I got lucky. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

I don't think the FBI would have hesitated to go after anyone they thought was Cooper, even if he was a Nam hero involved in classified special ops. McCoy was a vet and they sure had no problems pursuing him, literally to death. They have had no problem going after their own when espionage is suspected. Of course we don't know what investigations were squelched or hidden. I don't want to be an apologist for Carr, but this was never a REAL FBI assignment, it was always sort of an extra credit after school project. Once he got dinged by superiors because of a complaint from someone he was interacting with on this forum, I can see why he just stopped putting energy into this and focused on chasing bank robbers, which he seems to be pretty good at. Its all about playing the odds. The chances of Carr or us finding Cooper is low, yet his involvement here could hurt his career. So why spend time in a high risk low reward situation? Just put it on a far back burner and concentrate on the stuff that gets the Seattle FBI office great publicity, apprehending bank robbers. Thats what "G Men" are expected to do. The citizen sleuth thing sounded good until it got messy and eroded the traditional isolation between the FBI and people who cold be thought of as kooks. After that, its potential for good FBI PR was diminished substantially. They made a few closing PR splashes with Tom K, trying to show that citizen scientists were involved, and then it faded away. I just have this nagging hunch that Cooper knew about or was involved in paradrop activities in SE Asia. Wish Billy W would post here and add his knowledge. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

A rigger might be able to tell us something useful from that close up, but I can't other than it looks like perhaps that Cooper's knife wasnt very sharp. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

I mapped Snow's land mines using an autonomous GPS equipped mini rover with a magnetometer, but his genius dogs probably have them all relocated by now. This info on SOG bag attachment practices is very interesting. Just goes to show how we can make possibly incorrect assumption about Cooper's practices/actions being 100% whuffo. Although I prefer radios to knives, the knife stuff is interesting. There is a non switchblade USAF/USN version of that orange hook knife that is drastically cheaper on eBay. The military knife collectors pay big bucks for the one Snow posted. The non switchblade version is a FANTASTIC skydiving hook knife. Buy one before word gets out and prices (now $11) soar. It will cut where others clog up, try it on some bunched up old suspension lines and you will see what I mean. http://buy.ebay.vn/buying/en/display/200324221260_USNUSAF-ORANGE-HOOK-KNIFE-SURVIVAL-VEST 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Good for you Jerry and Kelly too. That generous spirit (no license fees) is very much appreciated. I hope it gets adopted. Skydiving has become more and more "commercial" and profit driven since I started jumping in 1968. That's OK, DZOs and gear mfrs have to make a living, but I am glad there are still a few guys like you and Kelly who bring a wealth of experience and innovative safety ideas/inventions into our sport and don't seek a dime for it. The U Tube videos were very impressive, especially the bag lock one. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Snow the stuff you are finding is riveting. Keep up the good work. The guts shown by the RTs and by many others including Mustachio is awe inspiring. I can only imagine how they felt when the US decided to pull out of Nam. Do you think they mean carabiner when they say D ring in your prior post? 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Of course there is ZERO evidence that Billy W was DBC, but I think he is a better match for the FBI sketch than Gosset, who was the prior front runner. I wish some of these Nam HALO insertion guys would post here. I am sure they would think of some stuff that we wouldn't. I'd like to hear if they interacted with any of the CIA recruited smoke jumpers who did stuff in Nam. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

I am not sure I agree with you about the rig Quade. I cannot, however, argue your point about the shoes. No experienced jumper would go out with those shoes on that jump. Might he have had other shoes? Doesnt make a lot of sense to plan an in flight shoe change. You could find shoes that would not tag you as a potential hijacker that would be OK for the jump. If Cooper brought his own chute and abandoned it in the woods, it provides something traceable. Making the cops bring you some elses gear makes some sense. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

You raise an interesting point Snowmman. The FBI apparently did not know about all this SE Asia jump stuff you and Orange are now unearthing. That lack of knowledge slanted their investigation. They thought the NORJACK jump in those conditions from that plane indicated a total lack of knowledge. They were not looking for anyone who made similar jumps because they didn't think similar jumps had been made. There might have been some good suspects who were never even considered. As I said in an earlier post, I bet with just a little luck Billy Waugh or any of his jumpmates could have landed alive and made a successful post landing egress on the NORJACK jump. If they were working as a team with the right radio gear the chances get even better. All this goes with the usual caveat: NOTHING indicates Cooper had radio gear or was working with an accomplice. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

I'll comment. Damned good match Snow, except he has Duane's ears . 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Odd choice of primary comm radio uness they were modified. The URC 10 communicates only on 243.0 MHz AM, the military aircraft distress frequency (243.0 is first harmonic of civil 121.5 MHz distress freq so miltary UHF ADFs can locate civilian ELTs). Anyway... the VC had captured numerous survival radios from downed US pilots. 243.0 was heavily monitored as it gave an indication of a bailout and at least a rough location of a pilot to capture. Brooke is da man on Nam radios: http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.prc68.com/I/Images/URC10b.JPG&imgrefurl=http://www.prc68.com/I/Survival.shtml&usg=__CSI0-ZSP7-o_utknavOXdycAVqQ=&h=335&w=384&sz=27&hl=en&start=2&um=1&tbnid=zRmw-RzCwSShBM:&tbnh=107&tbnw=123&prev=/images%3Fq%3DURC%2B10%2Bradio%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1T4GPEA_enUS294US294%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

I'd like to see Safe's logic applied to the disposition of Cooper's gear. I see no logical reason why he would pack it out or do more than a very cursory concealment, just enough to hide it from air searchers. Who cares if it is found a few days later by ground searchers? By that time Cooper is long gone and the gear likely does not give the FBI any clues they didn't already have. If the chute didnt go into a body of water, it should be found eventually. It will probably help us determine if Cooper landed alive, but it will not tell us who he was. I too keep wondering if Cooper was domiciled outside the US where his absence would not likely be connected with the crime. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Same as always, I'm convinced he didn't really know what he was doing as far as skydiving goes and died that night. Nothing I've ever seen even suggests anything else. If he died on the jump, how could he not be missed and then eventually be seen as a possible suspect? Maybe it is easier to vanish than I think it is. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

I find that difficult to believe. They might not know exactly how it works from an electronics theory, but all fixed wing flight instructors are going to know it well enough to be able to explain its basic theory to a student pilot. This is going to be well beyond just "turn it on and it points." That said, the way an ADF works and the way an older style loop antenna works for navigation purposes (the kind used by say Amelia Earhart) is significantly different. The old style loop antennas aren't used today at all to my knowledge and that might require a little extra study by a bit of a geek. Thye old and new styles really are not that different . The first ADFs just motorized the manual loop drive and used a null detector servo to keep it pointed broadside to the station. The football shaped antennas you see on warbirds house a motor driven loop. There were even some FAA approved conversion kits sold in the 1950s to convert the old hand cranked loop manual MN 26 series DFs to ADFs. There is also a conversion kit made by Bendix to replace the draggy football loop antenna unit with a flush mounted crossed ferrite bar antenna on the MN 62 ADF receiver used in the 50s on DC 6s, DC 7s and others of that era. Hobbyists are still fooling around with DF antennas. These guys say they have found a way to resolve 180 degree ambiguity in ferrite bar antennas, but the link to the critial data is dead: http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:WBGeiMi5riAJ:freenet-homepage.de/dl4yhf/vlf_rdf/vlf_rdf_loop.html+radio+direction+finder+loop&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us OK, I know, enough geeky radio stuff. Back to chutes, HALO ops etc. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Former flight instructor (which carries a bit of knowledge about navigation in general) and while not technically an electrical engineer (as in I don't have a degree in it), I certainly know my way around radios and electronics and have fooled around with more than my fair share professionally. Most flight instructors I know have no idea how their ADF works or really how anything electronic works. Good on you Quade. The temporary exhile of a few participants has given you the opportunity to participate as a contributor rather than as a forum cop. While you still have that opportunity, what are your current thoughts about Cooper's fate? Did he survive the jump and escape successfully or did he die that night? I still can't make up my mind. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

I don't doubt it was done, but it would be scary as hell for me. Why bother wearing a reserve at that altitude? I guess you could use it for tree egress. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.