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Since show biz (Jacksons) is being used for analogies, I ask this: How many times has Cher delivered her "Final Performance"? Bye Cher. We hardly knew you. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

I know I am stating the obvious, but to credibly finger someone as a possible Cooper, you'd have to know a LOT about the case. Billy projects disinterest, yet deflects attention right away to a guy who is MIA. Based on what? Billy's suspect can't be questioned and Billy himself doesn't want to discuss Norjack. Dead end, unless you are Snow, who just shifts into a higher gear. There is so much I'd like to ask Billy, especially concerning who knew about the Air America 727 jumps, but he isn't interested in any dialogue on this subject. We are all getting a fascinating look at a part of the Viet Nam war that was not covered in the popular press, regardless of how Waugh plays out. If you participated in the kinds of missions Waugh and his colleagues did, seems to me you'd be really angry when the Pentagon just decided to pull the plug on everything. A hijack for ransom is not a direct payback to the Pentagon, but you can see how someone who felt double crossed by our government could get pretty antisocial and not care about the rule of law any more. Embittered soldiers sometimes direct their anger towards war profiteers. I don't think NWA was generally seen as such a company, but what could you do against e.g. Dow Chemical (napalm mfr often held out as immoral Nam war profiteer)? What do we know about Waugh's suspect? Anything? Eagerly awaiting the Tom and Larry show. National Geographic has always quietly profited from sensationalism, starting with bare breasted photos of native women offered (but not consumed) as sterile non sexual educational material. Those yellow and white covered "respectable" magazines were the Playboy for adults too embarrassed to subscribe to the real thing and for kids who had no access. Do I hear an AMEN brother? 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

There is serious scientific inquiry with repeatable experiment design, controls, double blinds to rule out subjectivity etc. And then there is show business: Hollywood, hangin with the "beautiful people"... Sluggo definitely knows the difference, so cut him a little slack. Who knows, the National Geo show might bring in someone with relevant evidence. A guy I know, a bottom trawler fisherman, dragged up a very unique aluminum girder off the Big Sur CA coast years ago. He actually knew what he had found, wreckage of the USN MACON dirigible that crashed at sea. He made a few calls trying to get the Navy interested and got NOWHERE, brushed off by ignorant bureaucrats. He gave the girder to a restaurant in Moss Landing where YEARS later, someone spotted it who knew exactly how significant it was. He tracked down the fisherman who was now in the diesel business. Fortunately, when he got out of fishing he saved his trawl logs, which were meticulous so as to pinpoint snags and avoid them in the future. The Navy sent out a research unmanned sub (ROV) to his coordinates and got spectacular photos of the sunken dirigible with almost no searching required. http://images.google.com/images?q=macon+wreck+photos&sourceid=navclient-ff&rlz=1B3GGGL_enUS305US306&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=DB1aSt-zDoXwsQPCiuGDCw&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=1 Someone may have found something of DBC interest in the woods and either didn't know what it was or couldn't get anyone interested. The show can stir things up. I look forward to seeing it. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Bimbo? On what basis? Is she posing as a trained scientist? Is any female companion of Tom "Kaye" or Larry Carr automatically a Bimbo? There are no Bimbo jumpers. Not one. Those who might look like Bimbos got those implants purely for safety reasons, frontal protection in case of a bad landing. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Attachment shows a Huey with some special trick night vision gear on front. I worked with the guys who designed the system. Only a few were made. VERY expensive. Just the front lens for one of the sensors cost over $25,000! It used a 85mm spatially coherent fiber optic image pipe linking one sensor output to a pilot's monocular. You can see the big image pipe on the pilot's side.Guns could be slaved to aim with the sensor. Something went terribly wrong on an early Nam mission using this. The Huey was lost. It was all hush hush, but persistent rumors of a night time shoot-down by another Huey and a coverup! There were also rumors of flights deep into the North in these specially equipped Hueys (UH 1M?) with civilians aboard. Nobody knew what the missions were. Hard to know what really happened. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

And I thought Apocalypse Now was over the top with exaggerated weird surreal stuff... Coppola didn't even scratch the surface. Oh, the humanity. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Both had military jump and survival training, that's why. Waugh was far more qualified, but Gosset wasn't exactly a Whuffo. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

I correspond with Galen Cook from time to time and find that he has an open mind. He thinks Gosset is the best Cooper suspect to date, but he has never claimed to me that he had conclusive proof. Gosset was a pretty good match to the FBI DBC sketch, until I saw Billy Waugh's photo. Gosset said he was Cooper. He told that story to a number of people. Waugh says he is not Cooper. Either could have done it. Waugh has far better night HALO jump credentials and is a better sketch match, but we don't have a shred of evidence that he did NORJACK. Would the real Cooper confess to ANYONE while alive? I doubt it, but you never know. Wonder if Gosset and Waugh ever met each other or knew of each other? 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Perris DZ Jerry, in Southern CA. They even have a DC 9 jet that you can jump out of once the current FAA hassles are cleared up. http://www.skydiveperris.com/light/experts/index.asp There is a link to a good TV news story on the DC 9 jet jumps. The vdeo shows exits from inside and outside the plane. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

I'll take a swing at it. First, hero definitions are very subjective. Mine is no better than anyone elses. It's a very personal thing. To me, a hero demonstrates courage and altruism simultaneously. Just courage isnt enough for me. The toughest military fighter is not a hero to me, but the soldier who throws his body on a live grenade to save others is. The jumper who can buzz a downhill skiers in a wingsuit is not a hero to me. The AFF instructor who goes in trying to save a helpless panicked student is. PJs, USAF Pararescue Jumpers, are as tough as any soldiers. I have a friend who was a Ranger then later a PJ and he said the PJ training was tougher. PJs have demonstrated herosim is Nam and in many peacetime rescues too. Read about them here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Air_Force_Pararescue To me, Billy's very impressive HALO RT exploits don't make him a hero, but that's not really his fault. He was given a really tough mission that required all kinds of bravery and he did it. Had he been a PJ, many of his rescue missions would have put him in a good position to be a hero and I bet he would have performed admirably. In one case the mission is to gather intelligence, in the other it is to rescue someone. You can be a hero in the course of either mission, but the rescue mission affords more opportunity. Anyone else want to take a shot? 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

If you ever jumped at Perris you'd have noticed, believe me. Perris in the Spring... agree Quade? 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Well now I’m gonna “lick my calf over.” It seems that Billy Waugh has lots of “homes,” some of which he probably actually lives in. Let me explain how I found this out: I don’t think I’ve ever mentioned my room-mate “Bulldog Drummond.” Well, he isn’t exactly my room-mate, but I have him chained to a pipe down in the basement. I need him when I’m “on the road” to do simple investigations for me. You know... simple things, like tracking down lost disk-drives, finding Plutonium that got left in the wrong place, things like that. Anyway, when I went down to feed him, he told me I f#$ked-up with my comment to Cousin Bruce. Here’s what he told me: It appears that Billy has purchased several properties between 1999 and 2000: + NICEVILLE, FL 32578-4800 + LUTZ, FL 33558-5018 + LAS VEGAS, NV 89122-3362 (2) + Owns or owned some Mobile Homes in Las Vegas (? many) Bulldog also told me that Billy drives a 2008 Cadillac with a Purple Heart (Military Honor) license plate (FL) #66356 and his current wife drives a 2008 Mazda with the license plate (FL) SGMBABY. Get it? “Sergeant Major Baby.” So technically, Cousin Bruce and I were both right. But I think Brucie was more right, I think the Lutz, FL residence is where Billy ”hangs his hat.” Now, don’t you guys be asking me to get Bulldog to find shit for you. I keep him pretty busy, and I don’t have a “pet carrier” big enough to put him on an airplane. Sluggo_Monster (still in a good mood)

Jerry, Do they let you fish for salmon up there? The sport and commercial season is totally closed here in CA. I fished commercially up your way and have been in all those coastal fishing harbors, Bandon, Brookings, Coos Bay, Astoria, Seattle etc. Hope you catch a big King. Georger too if he comes. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

None. The answer is always going to be none. As in commando. A perfect example of why moderators are needed: to resolve the unresolvable. I accept Quade's pronouncement and will go forward with a new view on this issue. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Remember that NY model who got her faced sliced up by goons hired by her landlord? She appeared on TV in some makeup that did an astounding job of concealing her scars. I don't know whow natural it looked in person. Non HD TV pcitures can hide a lot of detail. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

In another ten years you will feel this way too Snow. It is part of the aging process, denial of obsolesence. I am still cool, still agile, right on top of my game, just ask me. I do, however, get a reality check from my teenage daughter: "Uh Dad, aren't you a bit old to still be skydiving? Are you trying to prove something?" 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

I wonder if they thought the Jackal hunter might be able to help track down Bin Laden? 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Lots of guys get into skydiving because they think it is a "chick magnet." Some guys just skip the training and expense and pose as a jumper at bars and parties. They probably do just as well as real jumpers, perhaps even better because they have more money. Real jumpers just divide their paycheck between their DZO, tunnel, gear store, rigger etc. Old skydivers (including me) are so full of themselves that being approached by an attractive woman at a bar who is a third their age would not set off any "set up" alarms. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Sounds good Snow, but at 80 years old Billy is gonna know something is peculiar about him being our first choice for a covert airdrop job. Couldn't we just find out where he drinks and hire a "professional companion" to hook up with him? She could get the prints and DNA easy. Florida has no shortage of candidates. Maybe we could find the MK Ultra hooker list with a FOIA request and go from there. They might be a bit long in the tooth by now but they are CIA approved for covert ops. Bruce, can we task you with this job? 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Absolutely fascinating Blackbird info Snow. The mention of Cambodian paratroopers brought to mind a conversation I had with an old timer (70s?) named Dick who was flying the Southern Cross DC 3 at WFFC around 2005. He was terrible at getting us a good exit spot in the beginning. On one of his loads flown above scattered clouds but with the pilots using GPS (badly) I landed miles from the DZ in a mall parking lot. Got a ride back in a van full of excited young kids who though this was the coolest thing that ever happened. They all wanted my autograph. On returning to the airport I good naturedly asked Dick if he had ever flown skydivers before and he said no, except for some work in SE Asia during the war dropping paratroopers. He had flown Air America C 46s in SE Asia dropping Cambodian paratroopers. Our Air Boss Dean finally straightened this crew out on spotting by flying with them and showing them how to use the GPS corectly. After that we had a bunch a good jumps from this DC3. It had uprated Wright 1820-86 engines used on Grumman SA 16 Albatrosses and it climbed like no other DC 3 I have ever flown in. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Very moving accounts Snow and I get your point about it being a white man's war. When I was working in the Public Defender's office in Oakland CA during the Viet Nam war, quite a few black kids charged with crimes dodged a court/prison bullet by opting to enlist. There were deals made to dismiss charges upon successful enlistment. I often wonder what happened to those guys. They weren't the seasoned hard core career criminals, as they usually had too many prior convictions to be accepted into the Army. They were usually kids facing their first felony for burglary, drugs or some other non violent crime. Usually the evidence was overwhelming and they did not have a chance of beating the case. It was a choice between nearly certain conviction and imprisonment or taking a chance in Nam. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

I mistakenly thought there were a few post NORJACK photos of Billy other than the octagenarian ones. Still... why woulod Billy or someone as skilled as Billy do NORJACK undisguised? These SF types know how to plan and know how to minimize the odds of detection and capture. Seems to me a disguise would be on their mission list. Am I missing something? I wouldn't expect him to board with a ski mask but I also wouldnt expect him to board looking like himself. That Wilson stuff is just mind boggling. Bruce can really run hard on a conspiracy track with that kind of raw material at his disposal. Sending a planeload of C4 to Libya isn't a lot crazier than sending 96 US made TOW missiles to Iran (using Israel!!! as the broker no less), which was done by US officials supposedly acting without the authorization of the President or Congress. As an aside, didn't carrying such a low value cargo as drilling mud by jet from the US to Libya raise some eyebrows somewhere? Snow, you find the most amazing stuff. I sometimes try to backplot from your results to see where my searches missed the boat and I am still puzzled at how you found your gems. You must have designed a back door into some server chip that is central to the whole Google enterprise. I know that is actually possible. Just admit you did it and I can stop feeling so inferior. Hope you and Georger can maintain the current flavor of disagreement, in which personal insults are refreshingly absent. I know you guys will mix it up. That's as dependable as the sunrise. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

If we take Billy at his word, he isn't Cooper but he has a good idea who is. Wonder how he ID'd his suspect? Why is he following the Cooper saga decades after the 'action?' If Billy did do NORJACK, does it make any sense at all that he would do it undisguised? If he did do it undisguised, don't you think he would avoid photos subsequently? Isn't the whole point of special ops to avoid detection, identification, apprehension etc? I think Billy certainly had the skills to do NORJACK successfully, but the records of his Nam exploits show careful contingency planning and preparation. Cooper seemed woefully unprepared for the jump let alone successful attachment of the money and survival on the ground. Containment and secure attachment of the money was key to a successful action. Would Billy just hope he could throw something together literally on the fly? I can argue either side, but then I look at his photos and the FBI sketches and think how many guys with his record of very specialized combat HALO night jumps into very hostile terrain look so much like those Cooper sketches? Whether he was Cooper or not BETCHA Billy new about the Air America 727 jumps. The Wilson and Libya stuff snow posted has me reeling. Still trying to connect all the dots. Don't automatically assume that supplying a US enemy with weapons was unsanctioned and treasonous. Our own government did exactly that. Remember the Iran-Contra affair? Remember Oliver North? Remember Eugene Hassenfus? 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Looks like Snow is raising some fire power. Action, money, science. This is scary. Blogging and speculating is so much more comfortable and safe. Billy, however, could just tell everyone to F off, and he seems to like to do just that. Unless he is arrested, he doesn't have to submit to any testing at all. Being ruled out as Cooper gets him nothing. Maybe being a person of interest makes him more intriguing and in demand as an author and SOG media star. I am sure his fingerprints are on file somewhere with Uncle Sam. DNA? Less certain. Bet you Billy is reading this forum dispite his awowed disdain for all things Cooper. He has spent his whole life being informed about threats and covertly neutralizing them. If he was Cooper, he'd be figuring out how to corrupt the FBI's evidence too. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

I think Howard White posted this previously in another thread, but isnt this a DH Heron? 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.