377

I've found, that when people's thought processes get weak, they fall back on the strategy of calling their perceived opponent a troll. Was that your intent, or other? I am the only person on this forum who has actually earned a living trolling. Sluggo can call me a trollman and no offense will be taken. What is all this stuff about the "CULTURE" around NORJACK? What is meant by that? Examples? I am a lot more interested in whodunnit than the culture. I think I remember the culture of the early 70s. I didnt take enough drugs to erase the memories. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

So have you seen it already Sluggo or are you just a sunny optimist? They should have hired the special effects person who did the heroine's bailout scene in the movie STEALTH. That was pretty cool even though they took some artistic license to ignore Newton's laws when it made for better graphics. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Wonder if there is something to learn here that might be relevant to Cooper, i.e. a link between extreme combat and antisocial behavior upon return to the US? I know, this is anectdotal, but still interesting... IN THE NEWSPAPERS THIS MORNING: The Army launched an investigation after soldiers from the 4th Brigade Combat Team, 4th Infantry Division—nicknamed the Lethal Warriors—were accused in a spate of five killings around Colorado Springs, home to Fort Carson, in 2007 and 2008. Six other slayings involving unit soldiers occurred in Colorado and other states since 2005. The report called for more study on the links between combat and aggressive behavior. It suggested the Army find a way to identify soldiers who have been exposed to fierce combat. Army investigators compared the Fort Carson unit of about 3,700 soldiers with a similarly sized unit and found it suffered more combat deaths in Iraq and was deployed there longer. Investigators focused on the cases of 14 soldiers accused of murder, manslaughter, attempted murder and aggravated assault, mostly with firearms. They found the accused had experienced heavy combat in Iraq and that half of those interviewed reported witnessing war crimes, including the killing of civilians. Back home, the soldiers carried weapons with them because they felt "naked" and unsafe and had difficulty transitioning to civilian life. Some said they felt "weird" and didn't fit in, the Army report said. "There, we were the law; here, the cops are the law," one of the accused told investigators. The Army report says the accused claimed their commanders and fellow soldiers did not encourage them to seek help at home. Army West Division Commander Maj. Gen. Mark Graham was at Fort Carson Wednesday and was expected to comment on the report. Nationally, at least 121 Iraq and Afghanistan war veterans have committed a killing in the United States or been charged in one. The 4th BCT experienced a combat death rate of 8.9 per 1,000 soldiers during a first Iraq deployment and 9.6 per 1,000 on a second deployment. In comparison, the other, unidentified unit had death rates of 0.4 and 2.1 per 1,000, respectively. The Army task force recommended better training for commissioned and noncommissioned officers to manage soldiers with behavioral problems and ensure soldiers who seek help aren't humiliated or belittled. The Colorado slayings include the June 6, 2008, deaths of a man and a woman gunned down by a man with AK-47 assault rifle as they put up garage sale signs on a street. Pfc. Jomar Dionisio Falu-Vives faces first-degree murder charges in the shootings. He lived nearby and told friends he liked hearing the sirens as authorities raced to the scene, according to the Army report. Falu-Vives also faces attempted murder charges in the wounding of an Army captain shot twice while standing at an intersection. In May, Thomas Woolly, a Fort Carson soldier and Purple Heart recipient, was arrested on suspicion of manslaughter in the slaying of a 19-year-old woman. Woolly was in Fort Carson's Warrior Transition Unit, which provides support for soldiers returning from combat who were injured or have psychiatric disorders. The spate of killings prompted then-U.S. Sen. Ken Salazar, now interior secretary, to ask the Army last year to investigate the killings. Investigators also found that hospitalization rates for soldiers at Fort Carson were up to seven times higher than for the Army as a whole. In 2007, the Fort Carson hospitalization rate was 70 soldiers per 10,000, compared to about eight per 10,000 throughout the Army. That rate has increased steadily since 2004; Iraq combat began in March 2003. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

HILARIOUS!!! I cant stop laughin....too funny I second that. Hilarious post. That guy should write for Leno. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Jo, I don't cut the so called Dream Team any slack for operating in secrecy, BUT THERE IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE: You made a big conclusory claim, that you had found proof that Duane was Cooper. The Dream Team just runs in stealth mode, no claims, no nothing. I don't like their secrecy and preferential access to FBI data, but they have escaped the wrath of 377 because they haven't made huge unsupported claims. YOU, on the other hand, HAVE MADE A HUGE CLAIM which if true ends the case. All I am asking you to do is publish your evidence. I have criticized your tease tactics over and over yet you persist. Fortunately 377 remains calm and tolerant and does not lash out, at least not yet. You really test the limits of my tolerance however. Jo, First of all you have been watching too many court TV shows. Go watch a real jury trial. Was Duane ever tried or did he always just cop a guilty plea to a lesser charge? In the opening statements the lawyers tell the jury what the evidence will show AND THEN THEY PRESENT IT IN THE CASE. They don't say "trust me, I can't show you the evidence now, it is confidential but everything I said in my opening statement is true." It is TIME, right now. You made your claim so show your evidence. You make a huge claim which if true ends the case, claim you have evidence to back it up and then decline to present it. If you were in front of a jury you would be crucified Jo. You give yourself away in this statement: "They do toy with the witnesses on the opposing side..." Teasing, toying, cat and mouse... it's what you do here. You must get something out of it to continue it in the face of overwhelming negative reaction. Just cut it out and put your Cooper cards on the table. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Jo, OK. You say you have proof Duane was Cooper. Then you say you cannot post the evidence because it is confidential. So what is next? Does it remain confidential? Is someone waiting to publish it for profit? Where is this going Jo? I always come to your defense here but this repeated teasing really tries my patience and your credibility. Duane's eligibility for quick parole or even his assignment to a camp right on Cooper's estimated LZ does not put Duane on that NWA 727. FBI lies told to you do not put Duane on that 727 either. If you have something that puts Duane on that 727 just post it. Otherwise it's just the same old tease. Huge claims and no evidence, citing all sorts of reasons. If investigators you hired found the evidence it is yours to disclose. If someone else found it why are they willing to tell you yet have it hidden from the public at large? Public scutiny and peer review is the best way to sort out fact from fiction. Your secret proof is fiction to me until it is published, reviewed and verified. I do worry that what you have isn't even proof. You make HUGE jumps in logic at times. I think that you sometimes equate FBI lies or misrepresentations with proof that Duane was Cooper. You claim you can prove that Duane was Cooper. As they say in Cooper land: JUST DO IT. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Great idea and anyone who is thinking about this, send me a PM. Let me throw in a plug for Beatnik. He is a worthy recipient of your ancient gear. He is a very resourceful rigger, an active duty Canadian armed forces member and is really doing this to preserve skydiving history, not to make a buck. In fact, he has done considerable charity work and is now organizing another marathon jump event with all proceeds going to the Childrens Wish Foundation in Canada. I gave him some antique gear which he has fully restored and is jumping. I can't believe he jumps some of this dinosaur gear, but he does and I never would, so why leave it in a closet? He also gets really good photos and videos of the restored gear in flight which is far far better than displaying a vintage canopy hung from a ceiling. I want to see him aquire, restore and fly a Barish Sail Wing? Someone out there must have one or know of someone who does. If you want to see an amazing video of a canopy collision followed by two cutaways to round reserves, ask him to post the link. The amount of dust trailing one of the round reserve deployments makes me wonder if it was last packed 30 years ago outdoors at California City in the afternoon breeze. Two round reserves? It must have been filmed decades ago. Nope, about a year ago. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Do you know something Sluggo or is this just humor? 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

I am awaiting Jo's replies to my challenge. I just won't be swayed by any excuses for not publishing her findings. If you fear government control of information Jo the best thing to do is expose everything. No PMs, no private dialogues, not until you put forward your evidence. Tyranny loves secrecy. Big claims (Duane was definitely Cooper) and no proof is just a tease Jo. You need to do a lot better than that. Air it out. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Can't argue with that statement Georger. Just try to keep the personal attacks out of your critiques. You are right. Bad science deserves no slack. It doesn't , however, have to be attacked with flame throwers or daggers. Do you think Tom K is doing good science? Snow doesn't think he has the qualifications to do good science, but I can't reach a conclusion until I see the design of his research and the results of his work, which has gone completely dark. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Bill Dause, the Lodi DZO, has some of the cheapest jumps in the known universe. He has never been a money grubber. I used to make $5 jumps at Pope Valley when he ran it. I send lots of tandems his way just to thank him for the decades of reasonably priced jumps he has given me. His tandem prices are insanely low too, about half of what some of the competition charges. I like Monterey (which is actually located in nearby Marina) for a couple of reasons. I know some of the old timers there and enjoy their company and advice. It has gorgeous ocean views. It has cheap 18K jumps ($28 last time I was there). It is near Monterey which has great sights and shopping for the non jumpers in your party. Lodi and the nearby towns can be pretty boring for a non jumper. The King Air 200 at Monterey is a ROCKET SHIP! I was at 18K in well under 10 minutes. I actually like slow long airplane rides in old radial engined planes planes like DC 3s and Twin Beeches, but them days are gone. If you are going turbine, you might as well go fast. We are blessed with an abundance of good DZs in the SF Bay Area. You should try all of them. If you are going to be living in Monterey you will probably make the local DZ your home DZ just out of convenience. We even have an urban tunnel in Union City that you will definitely want to fly in. With half a dozen local DZs, a tunnel, a gorgeous coastline, moderate weather and a short drive to a world class city like SF, you are definitely moving to the right area. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Georger, I see all your points. It sounds like you have been through the rigors and hazings of peer reviewed research. Perhaps you have been on a PhD commitee or been a journal reviewer. It isn't a nicey nice process. I know that. Still, you can get the message across without using words like "tripe". That's all I was trying to say. 73, 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Way to go Dale!!! Great video. Great accomplishment. Man that looked COLD. We are so spoiled here in California. I think it's really cold when it is 50 F on the ground. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Georger, Be nice. I don't recall Safe insulting you. Why insult him? How are your calves doing? Work any DX these days? Sunspots are on the rise. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Jo, I have really searched a lot on the prisoner smokejumper thing and found nothing. Ground crews yes, smoke jumpers no. Smoke jumper history is richly documented, yet no mention of prisoner smokejumpers. None of the retired smoke jumpers I contacted had ever heard of such a thing. If there are photos of Folsom or San Quentin prisoners wearing smokejumper rigs, then it obviously went beyond just an idea. If it was operational, there should be historical evidence. You say you have seen a photo and a short article, but nobody else can find it. All I can say is keep looking if it is something you had and have just misplaced. I have actually been inside San Quentin and Folsom quite a bit when I was doing pro bono legal work for prisoners. I would not choose any of those inmates for a skydiving load. They are not dependable and are prone to escape. You don't get sent there for shoplifting, at least not before the three strikes law was enacted. Most Folsom and Q inmates are hard core recidivist criminals. Why on Earth would they be used for a smoke jumper job that typically has way more non criminal applicants than open slots? If you have found proof that Duane was Cooper post it. No teasing now, we have seen that too often from you. If you can't share it, then it doesnt exist in my book. Fame and fortune awaits anyone who solves NORJACK. If you solved it, then claim your glory Jo. Don't use conspiracy theories to justify withholding evidence. Fresh air public disclosure is the best defense against any efforts to squelch truth. Air it out or it will justifiably be ignored as a tease by everyone including me. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Jo, You are using conspiracy theories to fill in blanks. Resist the temptation. The FBI does ignore a lot of contacts purporting to have Cooper clues. I think it is because they are busy with more pressing matters and consider the tips to be of low potential value in solving NORJACK. I am not an FBI booster, far from it, but I do not believe the FBI is under orders to prove Cooper died on the jump or to suppress contrary evidence. They'd love to solve the case as much as any of us including you. How do I know this? I don't, but it is far more likely than your scenario involving conspiracies and coverups. I am just betting the odds here and using Occam's razor. I really do hope you have found resolution regarding the msytery around your late husband Duane and peace of mind but when you start mentioning coverups and orders to suppress evidence I worry that you are chasing phantoms not facts. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. We are waiting Jo. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Despite my dislike of censorship of any kind, I have to add my thanks to Quade for his tireless work here. It would be sooooooo much easier to shut the forum down permanently than to endlessly referee sandbox fights and issue time outs to unruly kids. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Jo, about this elusive picture: Jumpsuits can be ordinary coveralls. Did the picture show parachute gear? if so, how do do you know it was parachute gear and not some kind of pack used by ground fire fighters? I have found zero evidence that state prisoners were recruited, trained or used as smoke jumpers. I am keeping an open mind, but so far no evidence has been presented to me to support your claim on this issue. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Jo, You have used the fear of lawsuits to avoid disclosing evidence you claim to have and now you threaten "a major lawsuit" ??? Cut it out. Even if Jerry calls you delusional on national television what real damage is done other than bruised feelings? Unnecessary ego driven lawyer fueled lawsuits are a cancer, a plague, a pestilence. Don't threaten it. Don't be part of it. This country prides itself on constitutionally protected free speech. Jerry should be able to call you delusional if he believes you are. I can sue a lot easier than you can, yet I wouldn't sue Jerry if he called me a liar or delusional. Roll with the punches Jo. Go with the flow. Cherish the First Amendment. I disagree with your premise that government agencies knew who Cooper was and covered it up. That conspiracy stuff is very appealing because it can be used to fill in all the blanks, yet it is almost never factually correct. Might Cooper have had ties to Spook agencies? Sure. Did they know he was Cooper and cover it up? Very very doubtful. We are working on an enduring frustrating mystery, not a cover up. That's how I see it. That's how Occam sees it. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

An aging jumper, rejected by his peers, seen as boring, What to do, what to do... Aha, hijack the International Space Station. That would get their attention. Have ransom delivered in a unmanned space tug. Re-enter in a MIR escape pod, land in the Washougal. Now, just have to raise 20 million for a space tourist ticket and go up under a fake ID. Just minor details. Oh, and leave a clip on tie aboard the ISS. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Something tangible?! Well then Jo, please tell us - what report, who wrote it etc? Its not in the database of military jumps, the only night jumps I could find before Asia were SL jumps. Please give us a proper reference at least, if you have something there there is no need to waste hours searching on the net through all the other stuff... Thanks... Looking forward to Jo's reply. Orange, are we among the very few posters who have never threatened to leave the DBC forum? Guess we are just low drama folks. Does that make us boring? I worry about that. Should we fuss more and throw a tantrum now and then? Hope Snow stays around. The stuff he is finding is truly eye opening about what happened under our flag in Viet Nam. I want more. Every time I think I have found the gold nuggets he posts stuff I have never seen. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

I care. Jumping rare plane is cool in my book. Drover is a VERY rare jumpship. Wasn't it used in the Flying Doctor Service in Aus? My best so far is the ATL 98 Carvair jumped at WFFC in Rantoul Illinois. Fortunately many others snagged this rare bird in their logbooks. Best I have seen on this website is a guy who jumped a Russian TU 95 bear strategic bomber, kind of a B 52 type plane with 4 HUGE contrarotating turboprops. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

You can go somewhere Snow but please don't leave the forum. I was really looking forward to your review of the National Geographic show about DBC, scientists and citizen sleuths. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Sounds very important. Glad we have the best and the brightest working on it. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.