377

Most aviation whuffos dont know that flap positions are specified in degrees. A demand for 15 degrees could have just been a lucky guess or evidence some knowledge of 727 flight characteristics. He didn't just say "flaps down" or "full flaps", he specified a precise setting that was appropriate for TO and slow flight. The 727's speed limit with 15 degrees of flaps is 205 knots which is a good upper limit if you were going to jump, but wanted to exceed chase helicopter speeds. It's also slow enough to make it difficult for fast delta winged supersonic interceptors like F 106s to stay with you in bad weather. F 106s can fly at 200 knots, but it isnt optimal for a chase from behind situation. I am not saying Cooper was thinking about eluding chase aircraft, but he did pick a good speed to do that and it apparently worked. My position that Interphone was a term used exclusively in the military appears incorrect. It is interesting though that passenger airliner cabin crews may use it. Since we can't be certain that Cooper used the term it's all just speculative. Jo has written that someone connected with Duane was a Boeing rep to the Army. I think Boeing Vertol made helicopters for the Army. As far as I know the US Army never sought, bought or used 727s. 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

What airline? What was the nationality of the cabin crew? Just curious. I'd never heard the term until I started reading about military aircraft internal comm systems. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

It's a shame Snow's real life personality is unknown to most of you. You would expect an oppositional very difficult person but that's not what you'd see. He is a seriously brilliant guy (publications and patents) who has excelled in his highly technical specialty, amiable, funny, extraordinarily generous with his time and his stuff, loves dogs, family man etc etc. I sound like his publicist but it's all true. I know that few will believe me. I feel like Jo arguing that Duane was DBC. I'd be willing to filter his posts but I doubt he'd go for it. I really like Snowmman. If I became his censor it would wear on the friendship. Back to Cooper. Hey, what the hell has the Science Team been doing? Salmon swim up the Columbia but twenties don't. This total radio silence troubles me. Maybe we are not tuned in. What's the frequency Kenneth? Sluggo? Georger? 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

There is a ton of info in post posts about the 727 stairs, airdrops, CIA use etc: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3426156;search_string=airdrop;guest=75430251#3426156 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Read what Ckret wrote about 727 flight tests with extended stairs. I had forgotten all about this but Snowmman hadn't. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3234535;search_string=food;guest=75430335#3234535 Come on Quade, let Snowmman back on the forum. Yes, he'll be rude initially, but he might mellow as he ages. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Jo wrote: Nahhh. Even though I jumped surplus gear exclusively in 1971 and had recently traveled to Seattle by airline, the FBI completely ignored me. I'll admit I was kinda disappointed. Back then it was very cool in skydiving circles to be considered a Cooper suspect. Many hinted that they were under suspicion, but I think most were BSing. At least Guru really was visited by the FBI. So was Sheridan Peterson. Most in my area thought Bill Dause was the best local suspect, but he didnt look at all like the sketch nor did he fit the height description. A gear down order makes sense because you can hear and feel a gear extension and/or retraction in a 727 pax cabin, even in the rear. Any "funny business" in gear position would be immediately apparent. Dunno about flap retraction noise if brought up in tiny increments. You can change speed very gradually, but you cannot modulate the speed at which gear extension or retraction takes place on a 727 in normal circumstances (some planes do have emergency hand cranked gear systems for use if the primary system fails). I'm not saying Cooper had a ATP ticket and a 727 type rating, but he knew something about planes. Most whuffos think anything that moves on a wing is a flap. I never ran into the word interphone until I started working on surplus military aircraft radio gear in the 60s. The manuals always showed connections for interfacing the audio output with the aircraft INTERPHONE system, which typically included an AN/AIC-10 Interphone Amplifier. I guess we will never know if Cooper used the word interphone during the hijack. Too bad. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

377 wrote: I think that shows aviation knowledge and clear thinking. Both gear and flaps have upper speed limitations in their deployed positions. That config also limits range. Vengeful pilots could sabotage Cooper by giving him a 400 knot exit speed, but not with 15 degrees of flaps and gear down. They could make him hypoxic and eventually unconscious by flying higher, but they didn't know if he had an altimeter. They could fly out over the ocean dooming him to a cold death if he jumped, but he could see some lights from the ground and might notice if they headed over the ocean. Also the cockpit crew had to assume the bomb was real which made it risky to try to trick Cooper or threaten him. Cooper, with a few commands, made a successful exit and chute deployment likely. He'd be low enough and slow enough to pull it off. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

I think he knew a 727 could be jumped but was uncertain about whether a stock 727 airliner ventral airstair could be deployed in flight. That Air America plane appeared to have been modified to facilitate cargo dropping. To play it safe he asked that the door remain open on takeoff. Cooper wasn't an aviation dunce. He knew about specifying flap angles, gear down etc to keep his exit speed manageable. He allegedly put on the rig as if it was a familar operation. I think he'd been around aviation in some capacity. Ckret thought so too. I wish we knew if he really referred to the intercom as an interphone. That would a dead giveaway to some connection with military aviation. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Blevins caused WW2 and the US mortgage criusis, I have proof. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

377 is betting on the Tease. It's a safe bet with this horse. 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

He was an engineer and the schematics to the Boeings where ALL over the place prior to the Boeing 727 being produced. I have no idea what his involvement was or why he had the schematics to the Boeings. He did act for 6 yrs as a consultant for Boeing to the Army. This he told and wrote to me...but, I am under the impression this was in the 50's and before the Boeing 727 was actually produced. The 727 would have been on the drawing board - prior to the actual production. The 727 system schematics do not tell you whether the plane can be flown safely with the stairs deployed. You might be able to tell that the stairs are not locked in the up position by a landing gear oleo squat switch signal indicating take off. That would just tell you that the stairs could probably be deployed in flight, but nothing about the effects on stability, pitch and controllability. Only flight tests answer the question as to whether the stairs can be safely deployed in flight without creating any serious flight control problems. The flight tests WERE performed by Boeing and were NOT documented in any airline flight manuals. I am certain the flight tests werre documented internally at Boeing. Don Kirlan fought to get access to them to prove to the FAA that the 727 could be safely operated as a skydiving jumpship at WFFC. Boeing also had ready answers to stair down flight questions when contacted by NWA during the hijack. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

I have a $100 Kodak 10 megapixel point and shoot. The cheap Kodak isnt bad, has a German Schneider-Kreuzer glass lens system, optical image stab. and 5x optical zoom. Shoots OK 720P video too with sound. A friend has an $700 Nikon 8.5 megapixel SLR digital cam. I think its a D 60? We did some comparisons shooting the same scenes. In bright sunlight the photos from the Kodak and the Nikon are nearly indistinguishable even when blown up a lot. As scene light dims, the Nikon really pulls into the lead as the Kodak pix get grainer and noisier. Huge difference in low light conditions with the Nikon miles ahead in image quality and able to shoot without flash. This stuff is ho hum to camera pros but it was an eye opener for me. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Good out of the box thinking Orange and a real possibility! 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

It was pretty sweet Farflung. Stews even handed out candy before jump run. Many of us landed off the DZ due to high speed of the plane and serial exits. The plane was an IMMACULATE ex SAS DC 9-21, a rare model used for hot and high operations, short body big engines. Even up in the wheel wells things were sanitary. No pools of oil, hydraulic fluid etc like you find under the old freight dog cargo jets in Miami... or old 60's vintage bombers still soldiering on. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

One of my skydiving friends was a paratrooper (82d) and he said the C 141 spoiler's main function was to prevent exiting jumpers from being slammed against the fuselage. It didn't do much to prevent tumbling or other instabilities. I am finding nothing about a DC 9 skydive load in the 70s. I always thought the 727 at WFFC in Quincy was the first US use of a jet airliner for skydiving. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Ive jumped from several tailgate planes, CASA 212, Short Skyvan, C 130. There is no chaos by the open tailgate. Even in the DC 9 there wasn't any while flying over 200 knots with the ventral door open. That picture of deafening windy chaos by the door is painted in Hollywood. Once you left the plane there was quite a blast if it was flying fast. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Side door DC9 sport jumps? Give us a source. Never heard of this. The story about tumbling at 10,000 feet seems odd. If you can stay stable at 20,000 ft it shouldn't be a problem at 10,000 ft. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

http://www.fss.aero/accident-reports/look.php?report_key=1147 Would Amazon have jumped it? I doubt it. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Everything published about DBC helps. In this case we are getting the next crop of lunatics hooked on the mystery. Gotta start young. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

True. Even state govts are exempt from FAA regs. That exemption allowed the lone remaining airworthy surplus C 133 to fly state cargo in Alaska long long after the USAF retired them to the Tucson boneyards as structurally unsound. The owners slipped in a little North Slope oil rig cargo work too, verrry lucrative as the C 133 could carry things no other plane could operating on gravel airstrips. Hey, a bush pilot's gotta make living right? Ever see a C 133? I did. I watched the last flyable example land at Travis AFB a couple of years ago to be put into their base museum collection. H U G E. Like a Herc on steroids. I think you could have launched a 400 way from a single C 133. The surplus planes sold for about $30,000 in DOD auctions. They had vibration problems so severe that you could have a crewman stand on a sheet of cardboard during cruise and easily pull it out from underneath their feet if done slowly. That lead to fatigue, skin cracking and fatal explosive decompression events. No wonder the FAA opposed their use in civil aviation. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Re: Blevins pry bar gold panning technique: Now if we could just train crows to do this... 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Most STCs for jumpships simply authorize flight with the door removed. I have no idea what was authorized for the 727 and if there was any alternate lowering and raising mechanism that differed from the standard 727 airliner airstair gear. Boeing DOES have 727 stair down flight test records though. They were sought when Don Kirlan was fighting with the FAA to get permssion to do 727 jumps at WFFC in Quincy Illinois. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Jet jump. http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2584/4187154546_ddbc083a04_z.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.flickr.com/photos/lightning72/4187154546/&usg=__1I6kzA7rCPhxPmfhZr__TP7R0qo=&h=498&w=640&sz=125&hl=en&start=1&sig2=e40oPEWYvWqFCEkCdmUlFg&zoom=1&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=_NKFPd453kF4lM:&tbnh=107&tbnw=137&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dconvair%2Bcargo%2Bdoor%2Bopen%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG%26rls%3Dcom.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox%26rlz%3D1I7GGLL_en%26ndsp%3D18%26tbs%3Disch:1&ei=UnvYTPrPNMGK5AaR9-D-Bw 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Interphone comms in a chuteless KC 135 refueling a B 52: AC: we've got a stuck elevator jackscrew, I'm trimmed as far nose down as I can go, no way we can slow this pig enough to land it, we'll lose pitch control and buy the farm for sure. Boomer: shall I disconnect skipper? AC: negative Boomer, activate Harpoon Plan immediately. I'll chop power and you make sure that boom goes deep into the Buff's fuselage. He is flying us home like the Space Shuttle on top of that NASA 747. Fuck the Pentagon on this no chutes policy. Cheap bastards. Boomer: I struck deep skipper, she's venting a lot of stuff through the hole. AC: Good job. Thar she blows! 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

It's a moot point Farflung. Cost-cutting drops chutes from KC-135s (drops meaning ELIMINATES). http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2008/03/airforce_kc135_parachutes_030508w/ If you fly KC 135 tankers you are going down with the ship if there is a problem. If tankers don't need chutes certainly C 135 freighters wouldnt need them, if any are still flying. Tankers have collided with receivers. The B 52 - KC 135 collsion off Palomares Spain put some nukes in the drink. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.