Mockingbird

'Course someone with a Christian viewpoint can't agree with this statement because after the creation, God looked at all He created and pronounced it "Good." Since subsequent to creation God expressed his dislike of homosexuality (at least in humans; I don't think the bible addresses homosexuality in the animal world, so it's difficult to know if he has an opinion on it), it can't be said that He "created" homosexuality.

Right, I can't deny this.

Gay marriage isn't progress. Not directly, true. But I'm not thinking only of myself; I'm thinking of the USA that grandchildren and great-grandchildren, etc. will live in. We have a responsibility to them. Family is all-important. I realize that many who grew up in dysfunctional families disagree about the importance of the concept (of Family). But, I guess that's what this forum is for-- we can discuss stuff like this and not have to agree.

Civil unions? No arguments from me.

Yes, it's important for our society that the definition of marriage not be changed. Of course I think that human rights is an important issue, but "gay marriage" isn't in that category.

I think you're reaching. You don't change the definition of a foundational concept because of abuses.

But only if the definition is changed. Like marriage. Which is what the debate is all about...

If I ever meet one, I'll ask.

Not so far....there's a lot that we haven't got right yet though linz So husband + wife = family wouldn't be considered as "getting it right"?

No offense, but this is irrelevant. In the 200 year history of this country's existence, has marriage ever meant anything other than a man and a woman marrying?

I totally hear you, Icon. I haven't been to church in years. For somewhat the same reasons... Unfortunately there are advantages and disadvantages... to both sides. Sometimes, it's just.... complicated.

Since we're talking about faith in the context of Christianity and the bible, it only makes sense to attach the biblical meaning to it. Some dictionaries present the word as the bible does; others don't.

go on then, what evidence is this??? Ya' know, I don't know if I'm up to making myself into a target tonight. We've discussed the subjects of evidence and faith in the other thread ("I am a Christian..."), and every time a Christian cites evidence on which his/her faith is based, the "opponents" minimize, put down... and that pretty much shuts down any objective discussion. But here are some statements by disciples and friends of Christ, who talk about being eyewitnesses to the truth of what Jesus said and did. It's a copy & paste from a "Sticky" on my desktop, so it might be kinda' lengthy. And this will be about all that I'll say on the subject of specific evidence (eyewitness testimony), tho' I'm more than happy to PM about it with anyone who wants to. ********************** John 20:30-32 (New International Version) 30 Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31 But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. John 19:35 (Amplified) And he who saw it (the eyewitness) gives this evidence, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he tells the truth, that you may believe also. 1 John 1 (New International Version) 1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. 2The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. 3We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. 4We write this to make our[a] joy complete. Luke 1 (New Living Translation) 1 Most honorable Theophilus: Many people have written accounts about the events that took place[a] among us. 2They used as their source material the reports circulating among us from the early disciples and other eyewitnesses of what God has done in fulfillment of his promises. 3Having carefully investigated all of these accounts from the beginning, I have decided to write a careful summary for you, 4to reassure you of the truth of all you were taught. 2 Peter 1:13-20 (New International Version) 13 I think it is right to refresh your memory as long as I live in the tent of this body, 14 because I know that I will soon put it aside, as our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. 15 And I will make every effort to see that after my departure you will always be able to remember these things. 16 We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For he received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."18 We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain. 19And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, 2 Peter 1:17 Matt. 17:5; Mark 9:7; Luke 9:35 Acts 1:7-9 (New International Version) 7 He said to them: "It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth." Acts 2:32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact. Acts 3:15 You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this. Acts 5:32 We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him." Acts 10:39-42 (New International Version) 39 "We are witnesses of everything he did in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a tree, 40 but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen. 41 He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen—by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. 42 He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. Acts 13:31 "and for many days he was seen by those who had traveled with him from Galilee to Jerusalem. They are now his witnesses to our people. 1 Corinthians 15:11-17 (New International Version) 11Whether, then, it was I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed. 12But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. John 1:3-13 (New International Version) 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood[a] it. 6There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. 7He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. 8He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. 9The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world. 10He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of natural descent,[c] nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. John 8:12-19 (New International Version) The Validity of Jesus' Testimony 12When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life." 13The Pharisees challenged him, "Here you are, appearing as your own witness; your testimony is not valid." 14Jesus answered, "Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid, for I know where I came from and where I am going. But you have no idea where I come from or where I am going. 15You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one. 16But if I do judge, my decisions are right, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me. 17In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two men is valid. 18I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me." 19Then they asked him, "Where is your father?" Acts 1:21-23 (New International Version) 21Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22beginning from John's baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection." 23So they proposed two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias. Acts 22:10-16 (New International Version) 10"'What shall I do, Lord?' I asked. "'Get up,' the Lord said, 'and go into Damascus. There you will be told all that you have been assigned to do.' 11My companions led me by the hand into Damascus, because the brilliance of the light had blinded me. 12"A man named Ananias came to see me. He was a devout observer of the law and highly respected by all the Jews living there. 13He stood beside me and said, 'Brother Saul, receive your sight!' And at that very moment I was able to see him. 14"Then he said: 'The God of our fathers has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and to hear words from his mouth. 15You will be his witness to all men of what you have seen and heard. Acts 26:13-18 (New International Version) 13About noon, O king, as I was on the road, I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, blazing around me and my companions. 14We all fell to the ground, and I heard a voice saying to me in Aramaic,[a] 'Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.' 15"Then I asked, 'Who are you, Lord?' " 'I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,' the Lord replied. 16'Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen of me and what I will show you. 17I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them 18to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.' ********************** I don't know why some of the text came out in bold print.

What can I say???--- if you'd subscribe to the biblical concept of faith (after all, that IS the context in which we are speaking, isn't it?), we wouldn't have to beat a dead horse. As long as you insist that faith is believing in something with your eyes closed, I guess we'll have to keep drilling it.

a common misconception. Think of someone that really has your trust. What do you base that trust on? Just a hunch about the person, or a warm fuzzy? Or do you have trust in the person because of what you KNOW and have learned about him/her? It's no different in a relationship to and with God. Ermmmm O.......K..... then....(backing away slowly...) I was talking about "evidence" not trust, Right; but you had faith confused with what some people call "blind faith"-- that is, faith in something for which there is no evidence. Since you don't acknowledge any evidence that God even exists, much less that He can be trusted in because of His character or anything He's done, it makes sense that you would see faith as being blind. So it seems that what you're saying is that you don't believe in the existence of someone whom you can't see, hear, or touch. But I think that someone's existence isn't dependent on your perception or experience of him/her personally. They can and do exist whether you, personally, have seen/heard/touched them or not. I haven't seen/heard/touched God either, but based on other evidence, I know He exists and that He is a real person (or Being with attributes and personality).

a common misconception. Think of someone that really has your trust. What do you base that trust on? Just a hunch about the person, or a warm fuzzy? Or do you have trust in the person because of what you KNOW and have learned about him/her? It's no different in a relationship to and with God.

The doctor is in. Maybe you didn't actually have what the bible calls "faith"; perhaps you just had a feeling that you thought was faith. Faith is confidence, based on your knowledge of and evidence for the object of your faith. Did your faith just kinda' fade away (if so, I'd say it was probably just based on feeling... or even habit), or have you recently discovered something about God (the object of your faith) that is now unworthy of your confidence?

I haven't read the other comments you've received to your question yet. I'm a Christian and therefore know what the bible says about homosexuality, so I basically need to agree with that. *However, individual people's practices aren't for me to censure unless their practices affect me. This doesn't mean that I can't have an opinion on the subject of homosexual marriage, as I am a part of a society of which Family is the foundation. The foundation crumbles due to attacks from within: infidelity, divorce, etc. Now from an attack from without: an attempt to change the concept of marriage and family. So basically that's my position on it. To answer the question of the title of the thread, I'd say "Yes, primarily. But if there weren't reason to oppose same sex marriage for religious reasons, there would be other reasons to oppose it. Sorry can't go into more detail now. *My brother is gay, has been in a monogamous relationship for 25 years. We are close to each other and loyal to the core. I have a couple of lesbian friends -- good friends--- for over 10 years. I don't censure their behavior, and they don't censure mine!

Yikes. Thanks, tho'. Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

Bill, could you or somebody else answer a question I have on this subject? (I was a good girl and searched first rather than start a new thread. ) In the Category B Quiz of the SIM it says that if you're below 1000' and your canopy (for whatever reason) isn't landable, you should deploy the reserve -- but NOT if you're using a single-operation system. This doesn't make sense. There's no time to cut away first. I'm sure there's a simple answer to this... Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

Or try this novel idea: read the parts that apply to you, not the parts that apply to Israelites living 40 centuries ago.

CONGRATULATIONS!! AZURERIDERS! and..... SKYDIVERMOM!

Well, come on down to Texas and look; maybe one will pop up when you do! We've been waiting for one to get started for over a year over near NASA, and it seems like I read recently of another in the Houston area that made plans but never broke ground. BIG demand for them here! Just wish it would be more centrally located. I went to Skyventure at Perris to get a serious problem worked out. If it hadn't been for the tunnel and Ed Dickinson, I would've had to give up on the sport I think. Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

I think there's more positive work this pillar of society could do, too--- such as apologize to the families of the people whose lives he took, and be an example by responsibly and humbly facing the legal consequences of his crimes.

Also, "blinded by hatred" is an apt description.