Mockingbird

I bet you'll see a heck of a lot of good things, improved things, that we'll never see, thanks to the purposeful omissions by the press. (Well, except for Fox News--- occasionally they show some of the positives from over there.)

Oh no, Ben is leaving SSM?! I've never jumped from a plane that Ben was not flying! Are you leaving us in good hands? Thanks for being a great pilot and taking care of us, Ben. Good luck in AK, you lucky guy; hope you'll come back and see us again!!! Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

True. I don't think many people realize that this is the *real* purpose of the Law for us. Heck, even I didn't realize this until pretty late in life. This very thing is the reason that Paul states that "Christ is the END of the Law." He is the only person who could ever keep the Law perfectly, the only one who was perfectly righteous, the only one who ever pleased God in every way---- which is exactly why He was the only suitable sacrifice. Only *his* death could satisfy God's justice and reconcile us to the Father. Whew! Pretty awesome.

That is very nice of you to say. I appreciate your hangin' on to the end too. It was interesting... Scott Miller-- I hope to take his canopy course eventually too. I don't know what your Category H is, but it sounds like you're close to graduating and getting your A. Good luck. And lucky you, you have your own rig already. I'm jealous.

Although I definitely see your point, I can also see the other side of it (which says that Christ spoke this in the context of personal relationships). Could you explain this comment further? No. God, not me, made a distinction between murder and other kinds of killing and treated them differently.

At first I read "A.A.D."! This is a sign that I'm becoming a real skydiver. Speaking of which, did any of y'all get to jump over the weekend? I didn't (obviously) 'cos of wind gusts. I had been dying to go all week, and then I didn't get to. I'm still trying to get through AFF. It's been hard for me so far, so whenever I taste a bit of success (like last week), I can hardly wait for the next opportunity... which sadly didn't come. Now I get to wait another 5 days... Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

Ah, this is music to my ears. Oh rats. I'm trying, Alex. I don't know if the ASSOBs are true Christians or not. They may say they *believe* what other Christians believe, but whether they are the genuine article, I don't know. Only God knows. It is God who gives Life to a soul, and He doesn't tell me who he's given life to. The murder charge is a bit hard to ignore.... Seriously, I'm not trying to be evasive; I just don't know if they are a part of the family or not. Again, I can't say who is Christian and who isn't 'cos I can't see them as God does. I know most of the different groups that hold to the same major teachings of the Bible that I do, but whether each and every person in those groups are Christians, I DON'T know. For instance, if I go to the Pentecostal Church of God website, I scroll down to the bottom of the page and see a link that says "View the PCG Doctrinal Statement." OK, this usually tells me what I want to know about their beliefs. So I click on that and I see that they have the same basic view of the Scriptures as most protestant groups. Then I see their view of the Godhead, that there are three persons of one individual essence who are co-equal, co-existent, and co-eternal, namely the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. (From this I can see that they hold to the diety of Christ, which is very important.) Their view of Man is in complete agreement with the mainstream Christian group. Concerning Salvation, they say that it is made possible through the work of Christ on the cross and through the drawing of the Holy Spirit and NOT by the works of man. The new birth with its eternal life follows, and the result is works which please God... a changed life. Hmm, I do see a bit of a problem with that last paragraph in which it is written: "Man is a free moral agent and can at any time after the new birth experience turn away from God and die in a state of sin; with the consequences of hell to look forward to." So they reject the teaching of "eternal security." This teaching is an in-house debate. Christians converse about this subject often. But it isn't necessarily a major doctrine. Some might see it as such. But your salvation isn't dependent on your views about this. At least, I don't think it is. Father knows! Then it goes on to give their beliefs about the universal Church (also called the body of Christ, of whom He is the head... Then it talks about water baptism. They view it as a symbol of the Christian's identification with Christ in his death, burial, and resurrection, so they immerse, not sprinkle. They do not view baptism as a work that must be done in order to be a Christian. Most Christian groups hold this view as well, although some don't. The manner of baptism varies from denomination to denomination, too. OK, then they talk about The Baptism of the Holy Spirit, Sanctification, The Lord's Supper, foot washing, divine healing, the resurrection of all Christians and the return of Christ, Hell and eternal retribution (they believe that hell is a literal place), and lastly, they talk about tithing. Interesting; I've never seen Tithing as a subject in a doctrinal statement. This particular Christian group holds to most of the same teachings that the mainstream holds to. There may be slight differences in a few of them, but they aren't important, just different viewpoints---- nothing to split up over. No. It wouldn't be hypocritical to disapprove of the murder commited by the ASSOBs even if my group supported the war in Iraq. One was premeditated and with malice murder; the other is defending the innocent lives in Iraq and helping keep the peace there. ...Except that in their case, they are committing murder which cannot be supported by any scripture. Again, I'll say that I disagree with their actions and the justification for their actions. But I leave it to God to judge the genuineness of their profession. I can't believe I'm still up. Someone please help me. I hope I made sense, I took an ambien a while ago...

In answer to your question, No-- not at all. I never made a blanket statement that should lead you to this conclusion. We were talking about murder and killing, not all other evils as well. You took a very specific statement of mine out of context in order to make it appear to say something which I did not intend. I said murder is legal??? No, certainly not if it goes against what God has said. Murder should never be condoned. Period. Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

Hi, Michele. I appreciate your taking the time to reason with me on the subject of personal attacks. I guess when one has been here long enough, he becomes desensitized as to what constitutes a personal attack and one develops the skill of *covertly* attacking another poster without actually using the personal pronouns that would give it away as a personal attack. Yes, I see now how the game is played; ya' have to learn to use the loopholes. Suppose I feel sorry for someone who has been covertly attacked in this way. Would it be considered a "personal attack" if I express my view that the attacker is being rude?

Yes, because they are embracing *a* letter of the book, without looking at the whole picture presented in the book. You can't lift a few words out of their context and use them to justify what God says is wrong and what everyone in their right minds knows is WRONG. It's so simple... unless you're a relativist, and then you can be all confused by it.

No, it is NOT bullshit Alex. Think about it. Relativism has made people unABLE to see and/or label black and white, good and evil. When so- called "Christians" go out and murder in the name of their religion, ANYONE, except for relativists, can see plainly that IT IS WRONG. Christians who would condone this type of murder are relativists like much of the world is today.

What you are saying is garbage. Actually, in *essence*, Canuck did attack the person. But I don't really expect anyone to admit that, so I won't push it any further. As for the question posed by Shropshire, I think every human life has a soul. I've always thought of it as the immaterial part of you, sort of like your personality. I remember in college studying the theological views of the soul. Some theologians say that human beings are composed of three "parts": body, soul, and spirit. These explain that the body is the physical part of you, the soul is made up of the mind, the will, and the emotions; and the spirit is that part of you that relates to God. They would say that some people who are physically alive have spirits that are in a sense, "dead" because they have no relationship to God. Other theologians say that human beings are made up of only two parts: body and soul (the soul being mind, will, emotion, AND the part of you which relates to God). That's all I know--- just the theological view of it. I think what Quade said about it is interesting. It makes a lot of sense. Shropshire, if you are interested in that the bible says about the soul, go here http://bible.gospelcom.net/keyword/ and type the word SOUL in the box.

Vercetti, WHEN are we going to agree on something??? Killing in the line of duty (soldiers, police, etc.) I know is a tough one for many people. I'm sorry, but I just see a huge difference between murder and killing "in the line of duty." Loss of life at another's hands is horrible, and I hate war. I hate the fact that people kill with the backing of their authority or without. When an islamic extremist cuts off an enemy's head with malice and forethought in front of a camera, it simply cannot be justified in any civil society. The same goes for an abortion bomber-- he does it with premeditation and malice, not in self-defense or for any just cause. I guess I trust the law when it stipulates that one act of killing is "lawful" and another is "unlawful".... although I don't like either kind! Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

I guess CanuckInUSA is immune to this recommendation? If he called my opinion "garbage" just on the assumption that it probably came from a bible, I wouldn't be happy about it either! It seems like all views have the privilege of being received with *Tolerance* except for religious ones, especially Christian.

Michele, although I agree with you, I think Chuteless was just reacting to CanuckInUSA's "PA" on him in Post #6. Seems like any time someone mentions "God" or "Bible" they get ripped apart and are made to look like a bigot and a buffoon. But if that person responds with an attack, he's the one who gets scolded. What kind of justice is that?

See how the idea of situational ethics (you can compromise your right principles in order to accomplish something you think is good) and relativism has caused so much confusion in the world!? An old saying goes, "It's not right to do wrong to someone in order to get a chance to do right." I assure you that an abortion clinic bomber never took the time to ask God for guidance as to how he/she/they could best save the lives of unborn children (or, if they did, they ultimately decided not to follow his guidance); nor did they follow the principles that scripture teaches for how best to affect one's world! God doesn't "tell" an honest seeker to do something wrong. Oh, but in this postmodern world, what is "wrong"? What's "wrong" for me to do may be "right" for you to do, right? Why do we even bother to have laws any more, since laws are based on values, and values are all relative?! [/sarcasm!] Compromise has taken us down this path. The fruit of relativism is confusion. No wonder you have so many questions as to who is Christian and who isn't, who, besides God, can discern between this and that. You are looking for absoutes in an "everything's relative" world. If you will forget all the relativism crap and look through God's eyes, which He has given us the privilege of doing by revealing His mind to us in the pages of scripture, you will be able to see more clearly. Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

Wow, Zenister. You sound downright dogmatic

Chris is right-- abortion clinic bombers can't justify their behavior using scripture, because there is no scripture that condones murder... or acting on your anger. ("Be angry, but do not sin.") (I'm assuming that those bombers acted primarily in anger against abortionists.) I don't see the difficulty in understanding this, Alex. Do you think we're going to say, "Oh sure, they are Christians just because they give mental assent to the same teachings in the Bible that other Christians believe"? Obviously, you have to walk the walk, not just talk the talk; if your life doesn't match up with what you say you believe, you're obviously a farce. That doesn't mean that Christians are perfect. But committing something as obviously wrong as murder is a dead giveaway that you do not have the love and the life of God inside you. I thought we covered this when we talked about hypocrisy. Maybe you skipped a few posts accidentally? Read the letter of James, the half-brother of Jesus... or the first letter of John. Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

I just ran across something written by a "leading" hindu scholar by the name of Zaehner. ( I don't know anything about him, just that he said this...) "To maintain that all religions are paths leading to the same goal, as is so frequently done today, is to maintain something that is not true. Not only on the dogmatic, but also on the mystical plane, too, there is no agreement. It is then only too true that the basic principles of Eastern and Western, which in practice means Indian and Semitic, thought are, I will not say irreconcilably opposed; they are simply not starting from the same premises. The only common ground is that the function of religion is to provide release; there is no agreement at all as to what it is that man must be released from. The great religions are talking at cross purposes." Somewhat having to do with "what man needs release from, I also read this statement a while ago... by a Christian of course. "Honesty should move us to reflect, in the light of our sin and rebellion, not why there is only one way to God, but why there should be a way at all!" Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

Hey everybody, do y'all think that the title of our thread is still relevant to what we are discussing? Maybe we could start a new thread called "What is Christianity?" or you know, something more general because we seem to be skipping around and only occasionally talking about whether the bible is the word of God. What do y'all think? Also, it's getting so long that if someone new wanted to get in on it, the length of posts they would have to read in order to catch up with us would probably deter them from trying. What do y'all think? Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

I could not embrace a person as a Christian brother who claims to be Jesus. No, Koresh did NOT accept the most basic teachings of Christianity. Even if he claimed to, Christ said that we would know a false teacher by his rotten fruit. Remember the words of Jesus that were quoted earlier in the discussion: "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name... ?' And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you who practice lawlessness." "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits." Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

I doubt that Koresh is practicing anything now. You are twisting my words. What I said has no relation to David Koresh's cult. Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

Differing viewpoinsts don't undo truth, though. But as Pajarito said, Christians may have to "agree to disagree" about things that are not of major consequence, such as which version of the Bible is the best? Major truths, i.e., the foundations of Christianity, such as the diety of Christ, his resurrection from the dead, the trinity, salvation by the grace of God rather than by our own work, the Bible as being authoritative, the eventual return of Christ, and so on, Chrisitans hold in common. These are teachings that would be extremely hard NOT to understand. The simplest and least complex truths are usually the most important. Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

If one is opposed to the implications of a fact, NO amount of evidence will persuade him. Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

True, we have not seen God "in the flesh," (but of course, we couldn't anyway, since He is not materially visible)... but until we do, we *can* really know what He is like. We don't have to lack knowledge. Here's why. Shortly before Jesus died, he told his followers: I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me. If you had known who I am, then you would have known who my Father is. From now on you know him and have seen him!" Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and we will be satisfied." Jesus replied, "Philip, don't you even yet know who I am, even after all the time I have been with you? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father! So why are you asking to see him? Don't you believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me?..." (John 14) Also: "No one has ever seen God. The only Son, who is truly God and is closest to the Father, has shown us what God is like." (John 1:18) Jesus even referred to himself in several instances as "I AM," the same name that God the Father used for Himself. Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"