Mockingbird

I take it that you think you're omniscient in order to be so sure that God doesn't exist. Am I right? Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

Oops, better call the Proselytization Police. Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

br0k3n, you're as close-minded as anyone is on this forum! Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

Isn't that always the case? Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

Smiles, I think you are not doing justice to the scriptures you mentioned when you don't look at them as books written by different men. For instance, the gospels. Why do you think God gave us four separate accounts? They don't contradict each other; they complement (complete) each other. Not one of them gives ALL the details. But when we put them together, we have a more complete picture of what happened and of what Christ taught. Certainly Luke didn't descibe every event that John did--- he might not have been privy to all that John knew. And vice versa. Mark focused more on the actions of Christ than His words. Perhaps because he was not present when Christ spoke and he recorded the recollections of Peter who was present. (After Christ's ascension, Peter was paired with Mark, who assisted and accompanied Peter on his journey's to spread the gospel of Christ.) I know nothing of the modification of scripture by early church leaders to make the text read differently and communicate emphases that weren't originally there. I'm interested in what you have found, though, so pass it on to me, OK? From comparing the thousands of manuscripts in existence, the only variants noted were changes in spelling (probably done by accident), grammar, and in translations, word choice, and so on. In a very few cases, a verse was added, or a passage was added... BUT, with the sheer volume of manuscripts which are compared and found to be in agreement, it would be easy to determine exactly the what the originals said! The more copies, the better able we are to settle on what the original said. I'd be glad to pass on some documents and statistics about the manuscripts if you're interested. Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

Not if he were given a pen and paper! He coulda' been a Masorete. I think that the claims of Christ were the most important message for us to understand; His claims do apply to us today, and to everyone who has ever lived. Yes, the people who lived before Christ was sent from the Father (around 4 B.C.) had a way to be reconciled to God, but that way was incomplete, only a shadow of Him who was to come. The "plan" consisting of goats and calves was a temporary expedient until the Lamb of God came into the world, when He would deal with man's sin (which had separated him from God) once for all time. Hebrews 9:11-14: "11When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation. 12He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption. 13The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. 14How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!" As far as providing an example for living, yes, that would be good if all, regardless of relationship to God, followed that example. But Christ didn't come expressly for that purpose. He came to reconcile us to God. (sorry to repeat myself.) Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

What, no comment on my great "Thing" joke? Rats. I agree that what we hold in our hands today in the way of versions or translations contain the "gist" of the message. The essentials of that message are that: Jesus is the "Son" of God, sent by God, to reconcile mankind to God; and there is no other way to be reconciled to God except through Christ. Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

Hi Michele. I'll quote from the document I referred to at the beginning. Hope that's OK. "...We mentioned that there were only about fifty passages where variants affect the meaning. We will now consider some of these disputed passages. The passages where the readings are disputed can be broken down into two different categories. First, there are passages that are questionable as to whether they belong in the New Testament. These passages are not found in some important manuscripts of the N.T. Whether or not they belong, no Christian doctrine stands or falls on any of these passages. Second, there are verses that everyone agrees belong, but there is a question as to exactly how the verse should be worded. First, the ones that are questionable as to whether they belong in Scripture or not: Matthew 6:13 the doxology at the end of the Lord's Prayer. Mark 16:8-20 a passage concerning Christ's appearances to the disciples after His resurrection. John 5:3,4 a parenthetical explanation of why people were waiting at the pool to be healed John 7:53-8:11 the famous story of the woman who was discovered in the act of adultery and brought before Jesus Acts 8:37 this verse contains the answer of Philip to the Ethiopian after he asked Philip if he could be baptized. 1 John 5:7 this passage has a clear statement of the Trinity; however the doctrine of the trinity is not based on this verse. Second, a group of passages where it is certain that the verse belongs; yet the particular reading of that verse is in doubt. Here are some examples of this type of variant. John 1:18 The question is whether the Greek text reads "Son" or "God." KJV says "...the only begotten Son..." The NIV says "...God the One and only..." NASB says "...the only begotten God..." John 7:8 Did Jesus say "I am not going up" or "I am not yet going up"? 1 Timothy 3:16 The question is this passage concerns the reading of one word. Is it "God" or "He"? KJV says "God was manifest in the flesh." NIV says "He appeared in a body." NASB says "He who was revealed in the flesh." Summary: We can summarize the evidence of the variant readings in the following manner: 80-85% of the text reads exactly the same, no matter what manuscript tradition is followed. Of the 15-20% that has any variations, 99% of these variations are meaningless and do not affect the translation of the text. Thus, there are about 400-600 places in the the entire N.T. where translation is affected by a variant reading. Of these only 50 have importance, but no Christian doctrine is affected one way or the other in these fifty variants. Thus the variants have no real affect on the meaning of the text." Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

REALLY??!?!?!?! Try me! (I'm practically broke.) How many bibles DO you have in the room with you? This is a good thing? To follow many of the world's man-made religions? You definitely have me beat, since I don't even consider my faith in Christ to be a "religion." (I don't even belong to a church! ) Do you know the story of the apostle Paul visiting Athens? Forgive me for the following long quotation; I hope you'll read it, anyway. I can see you as one of these philosophers at Mars Hill: Acts 17:16-33 (New International Version) 16While Paul was waiting for them in Athens, he was greatly distressed to see that the city was full of idols. 17So he reasoned in the synagogue with the Jews and the God-fearing Greeks, as well as in the marketplace day by day with those who happened to be there. 18A group of Epicurean and Stoic philosophers began to dispute with him. Some of them asked, "What is this babbler trying to say?" Others remarked, "He seems to be advocating foreign gods." They said this because Paul was preaching the good news about Jesus and the resurrection. 19Then they took him and brought him to a meeting of the Areopagus, where they said to him, "May we know what this new teaching is that you are presenting? 20You are bringing some strange ideas to our ears, and we want to know what they mean." 21(All the Athenians and the foreigners who lived there spent their time doing nothing but talking about and listening to the latest ideas.) 22Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said: "Men of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious. 23For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. Now what you worship as something unknown I am going to proclaim to you. 24"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. 25And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. 26From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. 27God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. 28'For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.' 29"Therefore since we are God's offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by man's design and skill. 30In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead." 32When they heard about the resurrection of the dead, some of them sneered, but others said, "We want to hear you again on this subject." 33At that, Paul left the Council. 34A few men became followers of Paul and believed. Among them was Dionysius, a member of the Areopagus, also a woman named Damaris, and a number of others. Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

Definitely. God most certainly used man to write, copy, and translate. Who else was there to do it? ("Thing" was busy, or he would've been a good choice.)(That was a joke.) Actually, I was replying to this statement by Zenister: ... but I accidentally deleted that part of what Zen said. He doesn't believe that the bible records any actual statements/claims of Christ. I completely disagree, but if all he wants to believe is what critics of Christianity claim, he's entitled to. Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

That it is given by god. That everyone carries the same uniform blueprint of conscience. That it is born, not learned. That everyone has one. Can you honestly tell me that everyone, from every culture, is born with the same ideas about what is and is not acceptable treatment of other people? To take an extreme example, what about sociopaths? People clinically unable to tell that hurting others is wrong - what happened when god was making them? I didn't say that every person in the world was born with a cookie-cutter conscience. But I believe that very human being has conscience, before he or she has ever been taught the particulars of moral behavior. This, however, is my opinion. Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

If this is what you wish to believe... It's obvious that you have read a lot of the anti-christian, anti-bible propaganda and bought it. I hope that you'll consider the other side rather than dismiss it out of hand. Of course, if you have ever read any research from the other side, I'd be interested in your reason for dismissing it, or what proof you've seen that it's wrong. Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

You read something into what I said. Why/how did you take as a threat what I, as a Christian, said???? Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

I love the way you expressed this!

The main thing I look at are winds, since it's rarely completely cloudy down here. And I ALWAYS depend on Accuweather.com, because it not only gives you the forecasted wind speed and direction, it also tells you what the GUSTS will be for the day. Very dependable weather site. See: http://wwwa.accuweather.com/forecast-detail.asp?partner=accuweather&myadc=0&traveler=1&zipcode=08094&fday=4&metric=0 AccuWeather says a 25% chance of rain there on Sat. with east wind at 9 mph and wind gusts to 25 mph. GO FOR IT!!!!!! Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

I faxed mine in this afternoon. I wonder if our License numbers will be consecutive, or if there were many others who got theirs on Sunday, too. Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

Opinions don't need proof; that's what makes them "opinions." What, primarily, do you disagree with concerning conscience? Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

You're right, and I'm GLAD that that's true. Otherwise, the world would be hell! Conscience is from God. Unless it's seared, it does its job pretty well. Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

Your view of "dead faith" versus genuine faith is right on. No problem there. But what I would add to your comment on James 2:17 is that faith in any god except the true God is dead, with or without actions to back up that faith. As for the Christian "sects", it's true that there are differing opinions on points of doctrine, most of which are non-essential, having nothing to do with the central teachings of Christ, which were: who He was, why He came, and man's responsibility, for example. Christ rarely made mention of His mother; the apostles (in their writings) never mentioned her except in passing (if at all), so I would hardly consider one's view on Mary "essential Christian doctrine." The relationship between the Father and Jesus is definitely essential, as He continuously brought it up. Whether wars were fought over certain teachings isn't all that significant, IMO! Mankind can find reasons to fight in practically anything. Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

Sounds awesome! Boy I need that! How much do these courses usually cost? Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

When I flew in the tunnel last summner, I turned by just dipping an elbow slightly, and I stayed in one spot, or moved maybe a foot away. I haven't learned anything about using an arm AND a leg to turn, tho' I saw it done that way on a Skydive Univ. video. Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

CONGRATULATIONS!!!! [BEER] I got my 'A' on the same day you did! So I know you're still probably two feet off the ground! It took me a little over a year. Isn't that pitiful? But it's worth all the frustration and expense. Have you faxed your proficiency card to the USPA yet? I was going to do it first thing Monday morning, but I was so pooped from all the excitement, that I'm not going to get it faxed until tomorrow! Boy, it feels great, don't it? Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

What's a "center point" turn? Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

You're lucky! I can't wait for the opportunity to take his course. I wish he were coming to my part of the country (Texas) sometime soon! What was the most valuable thing you learned... if you can narrow it down. Can anyone tell me the difference between Scott's and Brian's courses? Do they basically cover the same things? Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

OK, br0k3n, you got what you wanted... the answer to your initial question, "Why don't we all believe?" It doesn't appear that you want to have a grown-up discussion, and I don't have time to banter. Sorry. Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"