steve1

I owe nothing to the animal any more than I owe something to the tomato or ear of corn. But I wouldn't waste either. I'm confused - is your primary goal the activity, or the product - ie do you hunt because you want the meat and the rest? or do you use the meat and the rest because you want to hunt? I don't care much either way, but I'm in the first camp (I take pleasure in hunting, but it's not the goal) and only marginally understand the second camp other than at least they aren't wasting the meat. Hunting is romanticized by many. I don't agree, but it doesn't bother me either. reply) ...................................................................... I think I am confused by some of your words too. So, I'll try to explain this better if I can. I'm not trying to romanticize anything here. Every hunter I know goes afield with a set of ethics in his head. These ethics guide his actions. Using a high powered rifle to go out and kill something involves a lot of responsibility. Hopefully someone has the right sense of values and uses the right kind of judgment while hunting, and particularly prior to pulling the trigger on something. There's plenty of hunters out there who may not have the right kind of ethics in their head. Many have earned the name, "Slob Hunter". I respect the critters I hunt. They are more than just so many hamburgers or steaks, in my mind. They are a living creature who ranks far higher (in my mind) than a domesticated cow or chicken. I think wildlife deserves to be killed quickly and cleanly and not wasted. To do otherwise is not showing any kind of respect. I also think there needs to be some challenge involved, or why hunt? I guess we can inject all kinds of complicated thinking into this, but this pretty much sums up my thinking on this....

............................................................. Hey Jean, I wish I had a brighter picture to paint of hunting in Montana. Things here have changed a lot in the 45 years. That's how long I've been hunting here. I've never seen so many other hunters, as lately. Many are paying big bucks to hunt private ranches where the game is a lot more plentiful. I hate to see the day come where only the rich can hunt, but it's not far off, in my opinion. When I was a kid, big game hunting season would open in September and close at the end of November. Wilderness areas and Nationa Forests had plenty of good places to hunt. Most ranchers would let you hunt for free. You could buy a Mtn. Goat tag over the counter for five bucks. Some times you could hunt most of the Fall without seeing another hunter (if you went back far enough). Those days are long gone. The valleys are now filled with tons of houses, and there is a never ending supply of out of state hunters. Even 50 miles back in the Bob Marshal you'll find plenty of hunters with horses and mules. God...I'm a depressing old bastard, aren't I! To me, Alaska is the last frontier. I've hunted up there some, and loved it. But even there people are starting to complain about all the damn airplanes with hunters in them. Alaska sure beats Montana for hunting these days. Maybe we could all meat up there. My family went on a do it yourself caribou hunt, up near Prudoe Bay, several years back. I pulled a horse trailer behind a pickup, all the way up there. We camped in the back of the horse trailer, and I also had a wall tent. Killed a caribou with my bow. My wife and daughters helped me follow up on the blood trail. Canned the meat in the wall tent. Caught a bunch of fish, out of our canoe. Man, that was living! My daughters hated some parts of the trip, but loved other parts. Some of my fondest memories are of that trip!....

But, you wouldn't do it if you didn't harvest the meat. If you did, I'd have little respect for that. ................................................................... Taking care of meat is really important to me. I figure if I kill something, I owe it to that animal to make use of it the best I can. I hate people who kill game and then waste meat. I often tan the hide and use the feet for gun racks, etc. I also do taxidermy and mount a lot of heads each fall. In fact that's how I finance my skydiving when the weather warms up here in Montana.

................................................................... Hunting has always been a lot more than that to me. If all I wanted was meat, I could probably go to the store, buy beef, and save money. Not that I spend that much money hunting, but expenses do add up. Hunting to me is something I do to enrich my life. It's hard to put into words what it's all about. But it's a lot more than just going out and killing something to get meat. I have more respect for the wildlife I hunt than that. Hunting is something man has done for thousands of years and I truly enjoy my time afield. For me it is a way to escape the craziness of our modern world and do something that makes sense and feels right. It's a way to recharge and enjoy life more. When I was young, I couldn't wait to kill something when hunting. If it had big horns, that was all the better. Today I often let me wife or kids do the shooting. The killing part isn't that important to me anymore, but I still like to hunt. This is a lot like trying to explain to someone what skydiving is all about. And it's not for everyone. There's no doubt about it...there is a lot of work to hunting. Particularly after an animal is down, far from the nearest road. I'm starting to use my horses again hunting. I figure when I get to old to walk very far, I can always ride my horses and use them to pack things out. Backpacking and dragging meat is for young "Whippersnappers". Particularly if you are 50 miles from the nearest road.....

Canned hunts in Montana are now illegal. People decided they didn't want them and it was put to a vote, a few years back. There was an operation in Western Montana where you could check in at the ranch house, and pick out the elk you wanted to shoot on video. After you picked it out you were driven to the fenced in area where this elk was at and shot it. A 350 bull might be ten thousand bucks. When this was outlawed the owner, of this operation, threw a fit, but there was nothing he could do. He couldn't sell that type of hunt anymore. So he slaughtered all his elk and moved to another state. In my mind canned hunts aren't hunting. Growing up, I'd spend months hunting elk in the Bitterroot Selway Wilderness Area. I might hunt all season and never get a shot at an elk. They were elusive and it took a lot of skill to kill one. But that was what hunting was all about to me, and I liked it. The whole idea of canned hunts turns my stomach. But maybe that is what hunting is coming to these days. There are so many damn hunters out hunting, that it's getting really tough to have a quality experience when you go afield. Public land is often overrun with hunters. Much of the wildlife is being chased onto private ranches where only the rich can hunt. Some of these guided hunts are not too different from the so called canned hunts. On such a hunt a person of wealth, can fly in, kill a big bull and be on a flight home the next day. And what skill did he need to kill that bull. Maybe some shooting skill, but little else. Most guided hunts may not be quite this easy, but such a hunt is usually far easier than doing it all yourself on public land.

We were 12 when we took Hunters Safety. Our instructor was a very experienced hunter and he used to throw in a hunting story or two to add to the purpose of what he was teaching. It was a great experience. I'd recommend it to any kid, whether they hunt or not. I often teach gun safety in our school. Many of these kids will never go hunting, but they will come into contact with firearms. Knowing how to handle a gun safely can keep them safe. I know a lot of 12 year olds who handle guns very safely, because it has been drilled into their heads by their parents. Safety courses add to what they already know. I'd feel safer hunting with a kid like that than an adult with little training. Gun Safety is a required course prior to hunting in our state. I think it's a great idea...

............................................................ Growing up, Jack O'connor was my hero. I'd read every one of his stories with reverance. His greatest love was hunting MTN. sheep with his pet 270. He even killed Grizzly with his 270. I agree, the 270 with 130 grain bullets is a great combination. I've even shot elk with that load. I wouldn't mind putting a longer barrel on the wife's rifle. Thanks for the good idea....

I guess many may not agree with me, but I think even a lowly 22 would be a whole lot better than nothing in a home defense situation. I know people who shoot good sized steers every year with a 22 rifle, when they butcher. They use one shot, between the eyes. It may not take pin-point accuracy either. At point blank range you could put several 22 L.R. shots into the chest of an intruder. I'd bet it would be lethal. The heart lung area is pretty big, and a 22 L.R. would probably penetrate deep enough. I'd much rather have a 22 than say a knife or club. Don't get me wrong, there are better home defense weapons. I'd much rather have a bigger gun for that purpose, but a 22 L.R. might just might get the job done. Years ago, I read a story of a guy who was floating down a river in Alaska. A grizzly was popping his jaws at him on shore. This big bear then came out into the river next to his rubber boat. All he had handy was a 22 rifle. He shot it once in the side of the head, and it sank below the surface and died. I wouldn't think a 22 long rifle could penetrate that much skull...but it did.... I read another story of a guy who was chased up a tree by a bear. It was trying to bite his feet and legs. He shot it once in the mouth with a 22 pistol and that was the end of the bear....Just some food for thought.

I know there are better cartridges for deer than a 243. It is on the light side of things. But there are other things to consider. Most people don't shoot a gun that kicks like a mule and sounds like a cannon very accurately. My wife likes her little 243 because it doesn't kick much, isn't too noisy, and it's short barrel makes it easier for her to pack around and handle. She's used this for 25 years now. For elk she uses a 30/06....

We've shot a ton of deer and antelope with a 243. I used to load 85 grain, solid base, Nosler bullets. I don't think they are made any more. I usually load Nosler Ballistic Tip in around 90 grain bullets now. It's been my experience, that a deer will die just as quickly (when hit through the lungs) as one hit with a 270 or 30/06 with a much heavier bullet. I know this is debatable, but that is my opinion. I think they are a great deer cartridge. I've also shot some antelope and a few deer with a 22/250. This is in my mind is a terrible round to use on deer sized game.. The bullet just isn't big enough. It's also affected greatly by wind. There's always a lot of wind here in Eastern Montana. My wife shoots a model 7 Remington 243 in around a 20 inch, (Possibly shorter) barrel. It drops quite a bit more than the 270 at longer ranges. So for a longer shot, (at three to four hundred yards), she will use the 270......

QuoteMan, I live for the day when I can bag a Mule deer. Nothing but white tail down here. The buck I got last saturday is the biggest I've seen up on the land we hunt. If I ever get around to it, I'd like to buy a .270 and equip it with a scope. My brother uses a .270 with a dawn to dusk scope. Open sights suck at sunrise and sunset.[/reply .................................................................... I love 270's. My wife and I both have one. She'll probably be packing her shorter barrelled 243 tomorrow. If It's a long shot I'll let her use my 270 and bipod....I used a 30/06 for years though. It's really a great gun too....

My training was really brief after over almost a 25year lay off. So, I'm just wondering if I missed something along the way. I've been back about seven years now, but I have a couple really basic questions. So, at the risk of sounding stupid, here goes. I've heard it argued that you need to use both hands on a cut away handle, yet others insist on using one. Since I've never cut away with a modern rig, I'm just wondering how many pounds of pull would it take. I know if your risers were twisted bad, you'd probably need two hands. But for most cut aways couldn't you pull the cut away handle with one hand and go for silver with the other. This has probably been argued many times on here. My only two cut aways were back in the early 70's. Since I'm full of stupid questions this morning I thought I'd throw in another one. Does anyone practice cut aways from a suspended harness any more? In the old days with shot and a half capewells, we did that all the time. Of course shot and a halfs were dangerous to start with, and you needed to practice... I've never seen an experienced skydiver "lately" practicing this. Maybe practice isn't really needed with a modern cut away handle. But then again it might be a good idea....I'd appreciate your input on this....

I suppose it all boils down to the type of hunting you do. I seldom take a running shot. Most of my hunting is in fairly open country. For longer shots, I really like a scope. I sometimes worry about a scope failing though. A scope is something that can break. Over the years I've had one scope fog up so bad that it was useless. Another scope was worthless after my rifle fell over and bent the front bell down. I worry about ruining a good hunt because my scope goes bad. That's why I have iron sights on all my hunting rifles. They are sighted in before I put a scope on. If my scope did go bad I could loosen a windage screw on my Leupold "back" mount, and twist the scope off. So far I've never needed to do that, but I like having that option. I know most hunters like having a clean barrel without iron sights, but each to their own. We'll be taking a jet boat up the Missouri River tomorrow, in search of White Tail and Mulies. My wife gets to shoot the first one. I'll post the pictures if we get lucky....

I've never seen a kid written up in our school for this sort of thing. In the High School or even Middle School the hugging, kissing, and groping gets carried away at times. Nobody is going to stop a student from giving a friend a hug (in our school). But the policy is no hugging or kissing (in a sexual manner). It's a matter of drawing the line someplace. Teenagers are good at testing limits. I imagine most all schools have some kind of policy on this. Hopefully teachers and administrators have enough common sense to enforce it properly. Earlier this year, I went over to break up a couple students who were hugging and kissing in the building. About then I noticed that one of them was a Mother giving her daughter a kiss goodbye. Man, did I feel stupid.....

Nice buck! I like the rifle too. Have you ever hunted with a scope? Just wondering why you don't care for them....

When I was a kid, Johson's Flying Service, (in Missoula) had several Ford Tri-motors flying. They were used to fly smoke jumpers and gear and equipment throughout Western Montana and Northern Idaho. My Dad had a lot of hours flying co-pilot in one when he was still a teenager, living with Bob Johnson. One summer they landed a tri-motor, on floats, on a lake, way back in a wilderness area. It was so heavily loaded they had trouble getting it off the water on take off. This may be a story....but he said the pilot went around the lake a few times to get some waves on the surface of the lake. Some how this helped them get the plane off the water. I'm no pilot, so I don't know if that was even plausable. I made a jump out of a travel-air, back in the early 70's. It was an antique then. I wonder if any of them are still flying. This was another aircraft owned by Johnson's Flying Service. There are a few books out, that tell stories of the early days of Bob Johson and his flying service in Missoula. The following is a another story of my Dad's.....He was flying copilot on a tri-motor with Slim Phillips. They flew to a fire in Idaho somewhere to pick up a load of Smokejumpers. All of the Smoke Jumpers were Conscientious Objectors nearly all the pilots disliked them, because they refused to fight in World War II....They landed the tri-motor on a dirt strip to pick these guys up, off of a fire. Slim Phillips, had an entire cooler filled with ice cold water melon. My Dad couldn't figure out why old Slim was being so nice to these guys he hated so much. So, after a hearty meal of watermelon they took off again, headed home to Missoula. The hot air was rougher than hell. About then most all of these Smoke Jumpers started barfing their guts out. Slim and my Dad sat up front grinning at each other. "Old" Slim wouldn't let them leave the airport until they had cleaned up the back of his Tri-motor....It wasn't easy being a Conscientous Objector back in those days!....

I bought a couple Taurus pistols this year. Just wondering what you thought of that manufacturer. I know there are more expensive handguns out there, but for the price they seem like a bargain. The last one I bought for my daughter. It is a small framed revolver, ultralight model, in 38 special. I paid $309. for it, new. The other one I bought for myself. It is a smaller 22 revolver, with about a four inch barrel. I think it was around $340. new. Both are in mat-stainless finish. Both function flawlessly and have nice triggers. The accuracy with the 22 is great. We haven't fired the 38 yet. We just bought it a couple days ago. My other daughter has a similiar small framed, Rossi (stainless) pistol in 38 special and a short barrel. I've never been too keen on short barrels, but it shoots great. I looked at another manufacturer from South America...Their pistols did not seem to be milled to very close tollerances. The trigger felt gritty. Rossi was like that when they first started manufacturing, but their quality today is much improved. I do like the Taurus and Rossi revolvers....

................................................................. I just tried this one, on one of those guys. It worked much better than the Peter Pan analogy....

............................................................. I haven't seen enough blown barrels to make a judgment on this. I tend to think it's real though. Why would anyone want to fake something like this?....

A friend and I did a demo into a school a couple weeks ago. Everything came off great despite some stiff winds. Yesterday, I was approached by a couple teachers who were filled with the typical Wuffo comments. One guy was really wound up, with "Why would anyone want to jump out of a perfectly good airplane!"......"That's the last thing I'd ever want to do!"....ha, ha, ha. Then this other guy starts agreeing with him. So, I used my best analogy...."Haven't you ever wanted to fly like Peter Pan?"...."That's what skydiving is like for me." "It's a lot like flying." And then the one guy spoke up, and said, "Yeigh, but Peter Pan was a fairy wasn't he?"..... So, that kind of ended that argument. I tried to explain, that the only fairy involved was Tinker Bell, and that Peter Pan was really a Swashbuckler....But then again, Peter Pan did act kind of like a fairy. So, I guess I just need a better analogy than the old Peter Pan story when dealing with Wuffo's....

.................................................................. John Rich did a good job of describing another way that too light of a load can blow up a gun.....Rifle loads use slow burning powders. When the primer ignites the powder it starts burning from one end of the case to the other. Most powders almost completely fill the case. If for some reason you have a really light load (with the case only partially full of powder) the primer can ignite all the powder at once. This can cause much more pressure than your rifle chamber is made to withstand. So, this is still another way to blow up a good rifle and endanger your life! I usually weigh each of my loads after pouring them out of my powder measure. I'm a control freak when it comes to reloading and that means better accuracy. It can also mean safety. If you pour a load directly out of a powder measure into the case, you might end up with a case only partially full of powder. This sometimes happens if you use grain like powder. I've never tried the newer shaped (ball shaped powder). They probably come out of a powder measure better. If you do use a powder measure, it might be good to get in the habit of looking in each case, to see if there's enough powder in there. IMR 4831 powder jams up in my RCBS powder measure sometimes. It could result in the partial filling of a case...

It's a good reason to check you bore occaisionally. It's easy to get mud or dirt in your bore and a blown up gun could be the result. I often put a piece of "light" tape over my muzzle prior to going out hunting. The air pressure ahead of the bullet will push a hole through it before the bullet even reaches the tape. I've shot many a big buck this way. It has no affect on accuracy. I've heard of people loading a cartridge with no powder. The bullet may be pushed part way down the barrel by the primer going off. The next round would blow the gun up, if the first bullet is in there. Some people slip a 20 guage shell into the chamber of a 12 guage. That too is asking for a blown up gun. I once loaded some rounds with the wrong powder. The gun didn't blow up, but I got a face full of hot gases and could have ruined one of my pet rifles. I also didn't have glasses on, so I was lucky not to mess my eyes up. So, there's a lot of stupid ways to blow up a gun. Forgetting a bore sighting tool is one I haven't thought of....

I'm no expert on this, but I think this may vary a lot depending upon which state you live in. I've got a 7 acre piece of land. The fence along one side is probably in the wrong place. I figure it could be off ten feet or more. I have the original survey, when I bought the place. I did consult this with a lawyer here in Montana. She said that we were the ones who had paid taxes on this land, even though the neighbors have been using it for the past 50 years, so legally we would win in court if it ever went that far. If there was a road, this could complicate things, but since this is all bare land, there shouldn't be any problem in moving this fence. I contacted a surveyor a while back. I just need to have him survey it. Does this sound right to you? I hope this lawyer was telling us the truth.

What an awful loss! It seems the DZ.comers that I respected the most are leaving us....First Deuce and now Tonto. They may be gone, but not forgotten. Wishing Eric's family the best in getting through this terrible time. Goodbye Brother!...

The sight of a twin beech brings back a lot of memories. The Smoke Jumper Center (in Missoula)had several of them during the early 70's. We used to all pitch in and rent one, if we could get enough jumpers together. I think the price was around $7.00 to 12,500 back then. I got my SCR and SCS the same weekend, jumping with a bunch of Missoula and Kalispell jumpers, out of one of those same twin beechs. Dave and Nick Tousey, Fred Sands, Pug, Gordy Listor, B.J. Worth, Steve Nardi, Tom Kaiser, Bill Blair, and Stinky were all there. If I remember right Dave Tousey bought a twin beech in about 76 for the Osprey D.Z. in Kalispell. Alva Simon bought another one in Missoula after the smokejumpers decided to quit renting to us. On take off one day the wiring (in Alva's beech) shorted out filling the plane with smoke. We all made an emergency exit at a lower altitude. If I recall, the FAA was grounding most of them until the wing spars were worked on. In the later (70's) possibly early (80's) Rozzo rented his beech to fly the Mission Mtn. Wood Band to and from a concert in Western Montana. It crashed when the pilot did a hammer-head stall to impress a crowd of people near Flathead Lake. It was overloaded and couldn't pull out of that dive. Maybe Fred can clean up some of my writing here. I have forgotten many details of the early jumping in Montana. I also recall a twin beech that Mayfield had in Sheridan, Oregon. It had a much bigger door than I was used to. It was piloted by a young kid named "Elevator". I think I've told all these stories, at least once, on here. Since I'm running out of stories, I figured I'd tell them again.....