teason

Well .... On a round, the vent is usually 1% of the square footage. increasing to 20% decreases drag, but only 7%. Yes, there is less drag. No, it's not very much. I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

That's actually a common skydiving myth. Vented Apexs affect the critical opening velocity. As vent size increases, critical opening velocity decreases. That's the purpose of a vent and also why you get slow fallers using vented apexs. For the question of stability, on a round, vents on the skirt do far more than at the apex. Another key to stability on a canopy is line length. So, to answer the question, Base jumpers and Birdmen use vented apexs to decrease the critical opening velocity. It's a waste for the average jumper. But .... if you would like to reduce oscilation (as minor as it is) the PC must be constructed with the mesh in a cone shape. The way we make them now (to over simplify) is by placing the ripstop on the mesh and cuting a circle. This is the same as have a round with line = to the radius. If you make the cone shape and sew the ripstop to it, it will be far more stable (although, you'll probably only notice it if you have a container lock) I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

Actually, the OPs question was about pecking order for packing, not whining about how mauch can be made in a day. What happens when one packer feels he has right to get all the pack jobs ... even when he's not on the DZ. That's the issue. I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

Seems quite consistant with a quick link strike, although I've never seen so much damage. Any damage on your links? Bumbers? I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

I remember this kid I grew up with. When he got mad and started to cry he'd say "***sniff....You guys suck....*sniff* ....I'm going home" Then he'd take his toys and leave. By the way .... What facts???????? Geez Do you need a tissue? I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

Ah yes, is that like when you tell someone there is more to hard openings then brand of canopy? I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

Ah yes, DZO want to make skydiving unsafe. They charge experienced jumper an extra buck above thier costs (those bastards) They spend thousand on gear and maintenance and give the use away for free. And finally, they try to keep the plane flying without going bankrupt. Your points are specicious at best and weak at worst. Did some DZ policy piss you off and now you hate DZOs? Did you get bumped from a load so that a tandem could go up? Did a DZO tell you your canopy was too small? Dzs and jumpers have to work together not be in an adversarial situation. (a few specific dzs aside) Most DZOs sacrifice alot to provide a place to jump becuase they love the sport and are often met with resentment from the jumpers they are providing jumps at near cost. Look, we are not living in a Dickensian London. Its a DZ, not a sweatshop. We are all in it together, why shouldn't everyone fall under the same body? I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

Shouldn't these ravings be in speakers corner? By the way, which DZO perspectives are not in cohesion with Jumpers desires? Should there also be a regulating body for instructors separate for the general skydiving populace? Hell, instructors make way more money than the average DZO and they decide whether or not you need to do another coach jump. Why the rich white anglo saxon skydiver aristocracy in there ivory towers are charging to instruct the masses. I'm sitting in my sears brand tent while those millionare instructors dine on pheasant in there Northface tents! They buy brand new chevettes and dodge darts on the backs of the workingclass student!Those bastards! Knowledge is a right! Oooops, I got alittle left of centre for a second...sorry I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

I've put over a 1000 jumps on a Sabre 170 over the past 13 years. To understand why Sabres have the rep that Mattjw916 blindly latches onto, you have to understand where equipment was in the early 90s. First of, in the days of F111, if a new canopy slammed you, it had to be "worked in". This usually took about 50 jumps and then soft opening came into play. Relitively speaking, a hard opening in those days wasn't what we know as hard openings now. I heard people complaining about hard opening on Mantas! Jumpers also jumped big ass canopies and filling time can effect opening time. There were alot of bagged out f111 canopies floating around the DZs in those days loaded well under 1:1. Very little thought was given to packing by the average jumper. I remember "roll packing" a friend's Pegasuis with a 6" hole in the slider (she wiegh about 130lbs). Then came ZP canopies. Well, if you had hard openings, they didn't go away after 50 jumps! They continued. The rules had changed regarding openings. New and creative ideas came into play. Tightly rolling the nose into the centre cell. Pushing the nose through the lines to the tail. Pulling the sider to burble the nose. Then came the suspected causes like tube stoes, small lines stoes and offending the whack goddess. I'm not denying that there where problem with Sabres in the early days. Every Sabre I've ever flown (mostly pre '95) has had it's own personality and some were certainly widow makers. But the main cause of the rep comes from the transition to ZP canopies. In the early 90s, Hard opening weren't unique to Sabres, there were Conquests and Monarchs all doing the same thing. Also, we started jumping higher loadings. As time moves on, however, Sabres stood the test of the ages and have embodied those hard early ZP openings. Unfortunately, now anytime someone sees or gets a hard opening on a Sabre, it'll be the Sabre's fault. It's an easier excuse than body position, line trim, bag/canopy compatibility, packing errors etc... With occams razor, we don't have address our skydiving or packing skill. That way we can remain perfect in our own mind. I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

His comments were valid, don't throw stones. I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

Agreed, just making a counter point to Chuck's comment about places that propack. It should also be noted that the DZ is now under new and improved (just sucking up [;p]) management. To bring this thread back on topic, I've found the flare on my Firebolt 396 to be excellent, even with heavy students. Has anyone flown Flight Concepts Tandem? I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

At busy DZs you get far more variance in pack quality. I've never packed a line over flat or pro, that doesn't mean they don't happen. If you would like some annecdotal proof, there was a fatality at Bieseker Alberta (you can find a thread). The DZ in question flat packed all thier mains... with a packing checklist. 2 mall'd in a row. Now, once again, I like flat packing. I feel there are alot of benefits to flat packing vs. pro packing. BUT I does not eliminate line overs or any other malfunction Your post only shows that a good flat packer will have less mals than a bad propacker. BUT All packs require dilligence You cannot eliminate malfunctions with packing method, only packing quality. ***disclaimer*** I do, however, strongly believe a flat pack is less prone to packing error. I also believe that Flat packing allows packers to better check lines and catch damage, but I can't agree with Bill claiming it eliminates lines overs. I know, for a fact, it does not. I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

Well that simply ain't true. I'll agree that flat packs aren't as prone to mal when packed badly but to say that you can get rid of line overs with flat packing is just plain wrong. I love flat packing. I can flat pack large canopies faster than most people can pro pack. I have worked at DZs that exclusively flat pack large canopies over the past 13 years and mals still happen, even line overs. I know of a basic packing error that will cause a line over on a flat pack. Bottom line: the cause of line overs is poor packing, not the method of packing. I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

A poor pack job can contribute to excessive wear on the componants. I recently saw a pack job that had fabric through the grommet the bridle runs through. It won't cause a mal directly but it'll chew the snot out of your topskin. The owner paid someone $5 for that incompetant job and will pay more If he continues to use the same packer when tears are found in the topskin. On the plus side, he keeps riggers like me working, I just built him a new D-bag (the old one was heavily damaged!) On the downside, the crappy packer continues to make money abusing gear and no one knows because he didn't mal the main and the damage is cumulative, found later on down the road! I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

Gee, was that a racer Tandem or a Sigma without it's main? I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

Some ISO consultants are also just plain shifty. I've seen one company take two years to ISO. They fired the consultant and the next one had it done in just a couple of months. I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

None, D 18902 Had round reserves on my back but I've never had the pleasure. Have 11 rounds saves though

I hope that was on audits and not consulting. Consulting - If you're not part of the solution there's good money to be made by prolonging the problem! I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

ISO is a rating used in manufacturing. To over simplify ISO, it standardizes the steps used in the production of a given item and allows better trouble shooting of problems. For example, if you have 10 people building containers and each container involves 10 steps and each person does each step differently, if you had a problem, you have to examine all 100 steps. With standardization, you would only have to examine 10 steps. Most skydiving manufacturers will have standardized ways of producing thier product as there are regulations and minimums which must be achieved (TSO) I've been to manufacturers that do not have ISO but would pass the audit easily. The ISO certification just means they pay for regular audits. It also assures the customer of thier commitment to standardization and therefore quality. In a small manufacturing environment like skydiving equipment it probably isn't as important as large scale manufacturing with 100s of employees. That can become a real headache! I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

Um.... why not? I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

Well here's what I see as the situation. 1.) girl hurts herself skydiving. (could happen to any of us) 2.) girl looks for ways to pay for her bills (as any of us would do) 3.) the fact that she found out she was pregnant makes it a "man bites dog" story and the media jumps on it. (that's just what they do) 4.) Through the media girl find sympathy and a way to pay her bills from the accident. (not like she's the only one who would) 5.) Many in the skydiving community see the media as the enemy and a "friend of my enemy is my enemy." (by dealing with the press, they view her as selling out a double mal story for a few bucks) Fact is Shayna Richardson has found a way to make the accident that cost her so much, pay her back. There are people who will dig deep for those in need. Fact is we as Skydivers hate seeing skydiving accidents in the press because they always seem to allude to a "blameless jumper, chute didn't open" situation. Fact is Shayna has now become the target for all our disgust with the media. I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

Have other companies stolen my sight? You see, there are things that they do that aren't in the grey area. There are things that they do that are just plain wrong and even illegal. I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

Yeah! and we should quit calling Relative work! My non-jumping friends don't know what it is! Lets call it Formation Skyd..... oh wait. I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

You know what's funny, I was playing with some as I read your post! Paragear sells it here http://www.para-gear.com/templates/parachutes.asp?group=32&level=2&parent=193 They call the 600lbs flat braided "Braided, non-stretch dacron line" as if the waters wern't get muddy enough with specific mubo jumbo! I've seen old round reserves with flat braided line. I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

well then, how about bag design? There are three that I can think of. How about PC size and condition? There are other ways beyond stoes to slow an opening, stoe are just one of them. On my gear, if it was packed with small stoes, I got cracker jack opening. Big, super tight line stoes gave my a nice soft one. I recently switched to a speed bag and now I only single stoe my lines. Soft everytime! remember "no one raindrop thinks it is to blame for the flood" I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.