pirana

I care about more than price. I do most all of my non-jumping flying out of an NWA hub (MSP), and used to gladly pay a small amount more to fly Delta instead. My direct experience is that Delta employees treated me much nicer, and the ones I know that worked for NWA almost all disliked their employer (wife used to be FA). I think it is bad karma to fly an airline that has such a disgruntled workforce. My last bad experience with NWA was in 1987, and they have gotten none of my money ever since. I don't fly much anymore, but when I do it will be a dilemma since I'm not sure if the merger resulted in an NWA culture or a Delta culture. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

In Illinois, the data show that white teenagers are slightly more likely to be involved with drugs than black, yet the black ones are some 19 times more likely to be locked up in the juvenile justice system when caught, while the white ones get probation or community service. Socioeconomic reasons, not race. Rich or middle class kid caught with drugs gets a lawyer and gets the case thrown out or sentence reduced. A poor person defending themselves or using a public defender may not. Be good to know the specifics behind the rather vague statements too. What exactly does it mean to be "involved" ? Doing drugs, dealing drugs? Be good to know the repeat offender stats also. Repeat offenders are far more likely to be incarcerated. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

I don't see any reason for even trying to reconcile discoveries about the natural physical world with the dogma of organized religion. When it comes to understanding the physical world, spirituality has no say, or at least gets trumped by observation, analysis, experimentation, etc. Conversely, on matters of faith, sprirituality trumps all. Science and faith operate in different realms and on different matters, and have no need to be reconciled. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

Totally agree; he is the Democrat's version of Reagan. Lots of inspiring rhetoric (if vague boisterous phrases - and the occasional cute one do it for a person), and nary a word of substance. I gotta admit to getting caught up in it a little myself during the run-up to the campaign, but got turned off by his agenda and did not vote for him. I listened very carefully to a couple of his speeches on HCF - amazing for their lack of any real substance - very much like a cheerleader. Just like Reagan; a lot of words and nothing worth hearing. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

And the politicians are actually a very small portion of "The Government." "The Government" includes millions of people. "The military" is a subset of "The Government" as were the people at the Oklahoma Federal Building. The vast majority of people in "The Government" actually have no say whatsoever in how it's run and yet some idiots decide to attack people just doing the grunt work of "The Government." The Tea Party should be careful with this overthrow of "The Government" talk they keep spewing. It's just not helpful. Ya wanna overthrow the government? Do it on election day, but violence isn't the way. Good catch; my angst is directed to the politicians (elected officials) and the highest-level bureaucrats. Basically, the decision makers, not the front line government employees. Though on a case-by-case basis I'd probably include some portion that I have workd with (a couple incredibly frustrating DMV experiences come to mind). " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

The CURRENT recession was caused by the same greedy people who also whine continuously about the taxes they pay. I am one who whines about taxes (especially any effort to take even more of my money), but really don't think I meet any reasonable criteria to be defined as greedy, and don't see how I personally played any part in causing the recession. Exactly which of my behaviors played a a part in causing the recession? I didn't claim you were part of the set of greedy whiners that caused the recession. But if the shoe fits... Well, I was going off your statement: "The CURRENT recession was caused by the same greedy people who also whine continuously about the taxes they pay" and assumed since I continuously whine about my taxes that I was included in your grouping of greedy people that caused the recession. So, if I'm not included in the broad category you painted of people that caused the recession; maybe you could revise the statement so we know who, in your opinion, caused the recession. Maybe it was caused by only some of the greedy people that whine about taxes. Could you refine the definition of the category so we can know which greedy people that whine about taxes casued the recession? Broad whiny statements don't really contribute to the discussion. As an academic, I'd expect your contributions to be more precise and less like an emotional rant. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

So the government taking more of peoples money = better, taking less = worse. Got it. There are several countries you can move to that will take a very large chunk of your income and provide you with what they think you need in return. That should make you happy. My offer to help you move is still open. That would make a lot of us VERY happy.

I got as far as the 1st Myth and stopped. Maybe look at the rest later. That myth is characterized by the author as "war." That is a loaded bunch of crap. Why is it a war? They are making money; not war. They happen to be very good at making money. Why is being good at making money labeled as a war? For the record, I'm not judging it as good or bad, I disagree with some of the tactics; but if they are operating within the existing rules and somebody does not like it - then do something to change it. I guess labeling it as a war plays to emotions, helps with recruiting. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

Actually, I think there is a lot more to dislike about how our government operates than about Muslims. A very small portion of Muslims appear to be misbehaving. Pretty much all politicians are manipulative, slick, and deceptive. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

Agreed, just a matter of time. Must not be too easy though, or it would have happened since there definitely appear to be several parties that would use it (suitcase sized nuke) if they had one. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

No, I don't think my posting to this forum is necessarily the will of God. I began posting here about a year ago primarily for personal research and investigation. My first post was immediately attacked. My goal is to respond without sinking the level of maturity the attacker. Andy9o8 has on several occasions instructed me to try and communicate on the level of the attacker. I don't always do that well. I do not engage in debate. I share what I believe and where I have had positive experience. If He is all knowing and all powerful; isn't everything then His will? Including the fact that many doubt His existence at all? " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

The CURRENT recession was caused by the same greedy people who also whine continuously about the taxes they pay. I am one who whines about taxes (especially any effort to take even more of my money), but really don't think I meet any reasonable criteria to be defined as greedy, and don't see how I personally played any part in causing the recession. Exactly which of my behaviors played a a part in causing the recession? " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

Agreed, there will be pain. That is inevitable, the piper has to be paid; and as you say, it is just a matter of who pays and when. But the longer we wait to begin, the longer the recovery. IMO, we need to start NOW - TODAY. Immediately, at least stop increasing the spending. As quickly as possible, stop spending more than is coming in. This BS where we keep increasing the debt today in the promise we will bring it down later is a crock of shit. They sound like addicts. Starting right now, freeze taxes (revenue) and make at least little cuts in spending. Increase the cuts slowly, or more quickly if it can be tolerated. I can even accept not cutting taxes for some indefinite period as a trade off to at least start to decrease spending and working off a bit of the debt. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

Yes, not only are the drunk, they are drunken gamblers. Like my little brother at the casino. He blows his $100 (thankfully he is not a BIG gambler), then comes asking me for a $20. He thinks just one more $20 bill and he will make everything good. Cutting losses does not exist for these people; it is always either win it all or go flat broke trying. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

here's your problem - "effective" does NOT mean benefit to the people or fixes a problem or generates income "effective" only means it's a good PR clip that makes people feel (good/validated/vengeful/etc) enough to create votes for Congresscritters Well, as part of any major initiative I've been involved with implementing, we define how effectiveness will be measured up front; and I can't remember it ever having to do with how people feel. But I get your point. We (not you and I, but some folks I work with) were having a similar discussion earlier this week about a project. I was getting a bit frustrated and had to confess that making people feel good was somewhere near the very bottom of my objectives. Some would probably see it as a character flaw, but I think everybody needs to make themselves feel good. "I'll work the mechanics, logistics, budget, resource aquisition and allocation, and schedule for deployment; you please go do whatever you need to do to make yourself feel good. Maybe after you feel good again, you can come back and help with the task at hand." (Sometimes they look at me like I'm from Vulcan - or France). " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

That line kind of says it all; but based on the level of consumer debt out there, I'd say the concept does not register with at least the simple majority of citizens. Extending that thought, if some critical mass of people as individuals no longer value or practice fiscal responsibility, why would we expect them to demand it of those administering our government spending. Kind of becomes a chicken and egg thing. Did the public become drunken spenders because, what the heck, that is what the government does? Or did the government become a drunken spender because, what the heck, that is how people behave? " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

I think you need to examine how much American tax revenue is spent pouring people and materiel into, and American blood onto the sands of, Iraq and Afghanistan. How much is being spent on the latest fighter jets; how much on the latest aircraft carriers; how much on defense contractors; how much on maintaining an actual or de facto military presence virtually everywhere around the globe. Or... How much on providing the lion's share of the security umbrella for Canada and Western Europe and South Korea and Japan, so that they, not proportionally reciprocating, can provide universal health coverage to their citizens, while self-employed and under-employed and unemployed Americans who don't have employer-based health isurance can either go to the emergency room or go fuck themselves. Anyone who doesn't recognize that as pouring drinks endlessly down the alcoholic's gullet is naive. Let's say the US pulled out of Afghanistan and Iraq entirely and reduced its military budget by a modest 30%. Know how much universal health coverage that would pay for Americans without raising a single extra tax dollar? Do you really think that the result of doing that is that suddenly Americans will have to worry about the invading hordes wanting to rape our daughters and steal our American way of life? You want to cut off the REAL alcoholic without raising taxes? This is how to do it. I do not disagree with that; spending is out of control on many fronts. The missing ingredient is not more money, it is accountability. Imagine if the government had to actually follow a process or model that included measuring for results and justifying additional spending before getting more money; and (perish the thought) actually closing down programs that were not effective. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

What tax did he cut??????????? I dont know what liberal fantasy land your in. Add up property, state, federal, SS, MC, fuel tax, city or country tax, sales and every other thing they throw in there and how can you say we pay some of the lowest in 50 years? Yes, easy enough to pick out one piece of the equation and make misleading points. In the big picture, my estimate is that I pay about 40 to 45% of my gross income in taxes. Strictly personal opinion, and just coming from a gut level, but I think there ought to be a cap of something like 1/3rd on individuals. No person should have to fork over more than a third of their earnings. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

And the ones who run those Islamic states clearly disagree with you. They've probably also spent longer studying it than you have. It is, afterall, their job. So who gets to say what's 'true'? OH! OH! OH! Pick me, pick me! I like Dennis Miller's line on reality: Adolescent amatuer philosopher: "How do I know the color red for you is the same as the color red for me? Reply: "Check the Crayola box Momenschwanz!" " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

Not to sound stupid; but I'm not perfectly certain what the whole teabag thing is. I take it from catching it in passing that it is a general putdown of conservatives and/or Republicans. Fiscally I am definitely a conservative; and what I call a Responsibilitist. For any entity (state, individual, organization, whatever) to spend so much more than they have is simply irresponsible. It just delays the inevitable (which is the real work it will take to actually fix things) and punishes later payors. I believe the most valuable approach to improving the human condition is having a foundation built on freedom, liberty, and individual responsibility. Temper that with just enough codified law to keep those without principles from running amok. Easier said than done, but we should not throw in the towel and move to the nanny state form of government. And for the record, it occurs to me that both of our political parties have run amok. They have both strayed so far from the middle; hell bent for leather on taking us to one extreme or the other, and have placed our liberties and freedoms in the back seat behind their extremeist agendas. I do not think we should be forcing our system down the world's throat in order to further financial interests, and I also do not think we should be coddling our citizenry like the helpless toddlers so many of them have become. What the hell ever happened to a reasonable middle ground and individual freedoms? When that is suggested, one side responds that I am a heartless Nazi neo-con; and the other side responds with 'You pinko-commie lazy meddler.' We have become Peter O'Rourke's Parliament of Whores. Great post! I'm right there with you! I think there are a lot of us; so the question is - Why do our opinions get such short shrift? Is it that most politicians are scared shitless of occupyig the middle ground? " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

Too bad this admin. is not they are just throwing more debt on it. After seeing how the last 3 rePUBLIClown administrations have run it up.... I am willing to see something different. All of you expecting miracles overnight and thinking someone else was going to pay for you are what got us to where we are now. No one else has had to pay for what I have. Paid my way, and then some, my entire life. I consider it my duty to myself, my family, my country. Too bad we have now moved to a point where it is entirely acceptable to shun that approach. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

Not to sound stupid; but I'm not perfectly certain what the whole teabag thing is. I take it from catching it in passing that it is a general putdown of conservatives and/or Republicans. Fiscally I am definitely a conservative; and what I call a Responsibilitist. For any entity (state, individual, organization, whatever) to spend so much more than they have is simply irresponsible. It just delays the inevitable (which is the real work it will take to actually fix things) and punishes later payors. I believe the most valuable approach to improving the human condition is having a foundation built on freedom, liberty, and individual responsibility. Temper that with just enough codified law to keep those without principles from running amok. Easier said than done, but we should not throw in the towel and move to the nanny state form of government. And for the record, it occurs to me that both of our political parties have run amok. They have both strayed so far from the middle; hell bent for leather on taking us to one extreme or the other, and have placed our liberties and freedoms in the back seat behind their extremeist agendas. I do not think we should be forcing our system down the world's throat in order to further financial interests, and I also do not think we should be coddling our citizenry like the helpless toddlers so many of them have become. What the hell ever happened to a reasonable middle ground and individual freedoms? When that is suggested, one side responds that I am a heartless Nazi neo-con; and the other side responds with 'You pinko-commie lazy meddler.' We have become Peter O'Rourke's Parliament of Whores. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

Agreed; there is a dark beast in everyone, and all it takes is to be put in a situation where the layers of civility are allowed to be relaxed or worse, encouraged to be ignored. At our core, we are all beasts of survival and greed. Our most base needs are quite beastial. Only if those are met do we don the gown of civility; and we regress quite readily. Sometimes that is good, sometimes not. If it to protect young from prey, that is good. If it is to behave like a glutton or exercize dominance for dominance's sake - it is destructive. It's tough to be a species with large frontal lobes. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

Does this go back to the whole talking snake thing? " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

Of course they will have to raise taxes; institute a trillion dollar social program while the economy is down and the money has to come from somewhere. The line that sums it up best is the analogy of the alcoholic. Our government will never raise enough taxes to voluntarily stop asking for more because they appear to be convinced one more drink won't hurt that much. The problems we have are process and priority - not shortages. Ask a school district official how much they need and it will always be more than they get. Don't care how much they get, don't care how much my property taxes go up each year; the answer is always at least a little more. They are drunk on tax and spend authority. If this gains traction and gets to the point of serious consideration of mechanics and logistics; watch for all the drunks to line up to explain their reasons for exempting their particular pet products, people, programs, etc. "My name is Senator X, and I have a problem; but here is why my special need should be left alone." " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley