Guru312

A long time ago, late '60s or early '70s, I made radio contact with McMurdo Station via amateur radio. During the contact the operator told me that a parachute jump was planned within the next few days. A week or so later I was informed that a few Navy personnel made a jump near the South Pole. Guru312 I am not DB Cooper

Quade: Is having the discussion be civil the only criteria for trashing this thread? I stop by once or twice a week and the "discussion" is never related to DB Cooper or parachuting. The issues being discussed over the last months have nothing to do with the thread. How about closing the D B Cooper thread completely or banning these characters who do nothing but promote their own agenda, books or ego? Really... Guru312 I am not DB Cooper

Wow...first time I can recall seeing the three Bragg jump clubs mentioned in one sentence. Very nostalgic reading that. While in the 82nd, I started my sport jumping career in 1960 with the XVIII Abn Corps club because the 82nd club was too popular. As I remember it, only SF members could join the GB club. A very long time ago, in deed, because back then only the Army jump team...not called Golden Knights then...could jump a canopy as hot as a 7G-TU. I don't not remember any monthly fees for any of the clubs but I forget where I put my glasses and my keys so maybe disregard everything I've written. Guru312 I am not DB Cooper

This thread is strangely interesting. I knew WHO for many years. A very smart and a very likeable quite unusual guy. Some time in the early 1970s...or maybe some other time..I visited the Air and Space Museum DC. The was a 3 or 4 person "formation" displayed hanging from the ceiling. One of the figures was wearing Bill Ottley's jumpsuit and wearing his gear with a name tag. I was thinking that maybe the "estate sale" included the gear donated to the museum for the skydiving display. Unless Bill had some phenomenal bad luck financially he could afford wings made out of rhodium if that's what he wanted. Pure gold would have been easily be within his means. Bill Ottley played a very big role in the formation and growth of organized sport parachuting. And he was a Pelican. Guru312 I am not DB Cooper

Suppose DB tried his caper on an El Al plane instead of NWA. http://www.timesofisrael.com/how-to-defeat-airplane-terrorists-from-the-only-pilot-who-ever-foiled-a-skyjacking/ Guru312 I am not DB Cooper

All those years of them talking about that bulge in the pants, I never knew they were looking at the wallet. BTW,,,the potato goes in the FRONT! You are one funny friggin' guy!...and master of the one-line retort. Thank you! Guru312 I am not DB Cooper

Sorry for what may be a little off topic but...I'm almost deaf in my right ear and I can't hear any high frequency sounds at all in either ear. I have about 1800 hours flying jumpers in a Cessna 182. I wore rather expensive David Clark headphones but seldom had the right side on so I could hear commands from the J/Ms. I would sometimes remember to put the 'phones back on my right ear after jump run but most often didn't. Needless to say, never for a second did I think about going deaf from flying jumpers. I suggest doing...and spending!...what you can to save your hearing. It sucks having to say, "Excuse me, could you repeat that?" or "What did you say...again?" time after time every day. Guru312 I am not DB Cooper

I agree. Excellent. I enjoyed it particularly because I was a jump pilot and occasional instructor at Pelicanland where Fred jumped. The Pelicans were a team very hard to beat in the '60s and '70s days of accuracy competition. I sent the article URL to my younger daughter. I was so moved by nostalgic memories of the wonderful times I had while at Pelicanland that my eyes started to leak as I typed to her. Great place. Great jumping. Even greater people. Guru312 I am not DB Cooper

Money over everything. When I was a student skydiver at Ft. Bragg, NC in 1960 my first dozen or more jumps were out of a helicopter. Can someone explain why jumping a helicopter is an "advanced maneuver"? Does the USPA have an official position on this? I have never read anything which makes a helicopter jump more dangerous than a fixed wing craft. What am I missing? I think that Sergey's entry into the sport can only help spread good word about our sport. Unless he gets killed. Guru312 I am not DB Cooper

No, they are not. Using your impeccable reasoning the most stick-out-like-a-sore-thumb minority in the sport would be gay, black women over sixty. I've been in the sport for a few years and I haven't seen even one. [That I know of...] Guru312 I am not DB Cooper

What I think is pathetic is that I have held a WORLD RECORD for almost fifty years and not one single person has attempted to break the record. When people step up and attempt a shot at my WORLD RECORD then I'll get concerned about state records. http://aicommand.com/PukeDuke.htm Come on folks...give it a try. It'll take a lot out of you but you can do it. You'll be hungry for quite some time after your attempt to break the record. Guru312 I am not DB Cooper

If you define "successfully" as "not ending up dead", then yeah, most of us were successful. I can echo everyone's comments here. We tried all the stuff mentioned from pulling with a vehicle and tethering in high winds. Lots of bruises, scratches and a loss of wanting to do it twice. For the most part it was too much work for too little fun. On the other hand, a few times we took our Parasail to a beach along the Delaware Bay and pulled it with a boat. This was much more fun and rewarding for the work involved. Lots of student jumpers told me that they decided to make a jump because of the fun they had while Parasailing in the Caribbean. Guru312 I am not DB Cooper

I will turn 73 on March 7th of this year. I have been a member off and on since the days when the name was the Parachute Club of America. It only makes sense to take advantage of this new deal right now before they change their minds and make it still MORE. Now, if I can find my glasses and my check book and some stamps, an envelope, and my underwear and my pen I think, maybe, now is the perfect time to sign up for this life-time deal. Wait, what deal? Where am I? This is the DB Cooper thread in the History and Trivia forum right? Hello? hello? Guru312 I am not DB Cooper

Airtwardo has about the quickest wit on this forum. It's a badge of accomplishment to have Airtwardo pick on you although I don't think he's seen the inside of a gym for 30 years. Guru312 I am not DB Cooper

*I* think it's great we are BOTH here posting!! After a few dozen accuracy landings like in the one shown in joesky's nostalgic photo, I'm lucky to be walking as well as I do. Although I made quite a few jumps into pea gravel during accuracy competition, I also made dozens of jumps aiming for a target with 10 foot legs of white canvas. When the canopy is a C-9 with a double L or TU modification I'd be lucky to get within 100 feet of the target. For the most part, being able to hit any part of the target was a big deal. When I opened my first DZ in 1969 the State of New Jersey required the "drop zone" to be 1800 feet in diameter with no trees or shrubbery and be covered with either sand or grass!! One thing that folks learned how to do rather quickly back in the early days was how to spot. Guru312 I am not DB Cooper

Well, so far, you hold the DZ olde fart record by about six months. I won't be 73 until March 7 of this year. A few hours after throwing out the challenge of who was older here, I remember you and I mentioning our "old age" a few years ago. It was only a matter of time before you'd hobble in here and I'd de-throned. Guru312 I am not DB Cooper

LOL?! There is very little funny about being old. But I must admit the old guy in the mirror often gives me good reasons to laugh. Is anyone here older than my 73? Guru312 I am not DB Cooper

Well...I don't have any pictures of toggles, connector links, or D rings so I thought I'd post a picture of my very first jump pilot: Marsha Ivins, astronaut. Marsha flew for me during the summer of 1969. She retired from NASA last year. Marsha sent the autographed picture to my daughter. "Greetings from space." How cool is that?! Guru312 I am not DB Cooper

Actually, I can remember some of the olden days better than where I put my glasses. From my early days: ==First parachute jump, March 1960 while in Basic Airborne School, 82nd Airborne, from a C-119. Made as many as possible after that first jump. Every time my unit had a jump scheduled I'd volunteer to fill an empty seat. ==First sport jump, June, 1960 after learning to pack for myself. I was in the XVIII Airborne Corps SPC which required all jumpers to jump their own packing. ==First sport jump on a T-slot canopy. Next 25 or so on 5 gore LL. The Army Team, not called Golden Knights at that time, exclusively jumped 7 gore TU because that canopy was WAY to hot for anyone but Team members. ==I bought a unmodified C9 canopy from a rigger in the club and totally modified it myself on the sewing machine of my landlady where my wife and I were living. I was not a rigger and really had NO CLUE what I was doing. I guess the workmanship was OK because the Corps rigger said I could keep jumping the canopy. ==All my jumps were static line until first hop and pop. No such thing as AFF. Certainly nothing like tandem jumping. ==Around jump 25 I actually saw someone in freefall. Over the next 25 jumps we attempted to pass a short broomstick to another jumper. On most of those attempts we seldom got within 50 feet of each other. Relative work was a dream and didn't even exist as phrase we used. ==I opened a drop zone in 1969 and taught many of my students to jump using that hot, hot Army Team canopy the 7-gore TU. ==At some point in the 60s the ParaCommander became available. Whew, that was a hot canopy. Those were the days. Almost no supervision, over sight or regulations enforced. Matter of fact, FAR 105 didn't exist but I can't remember when that regulation went into effect. Anyone remember when we had FAR 105 regulation? Guru312 I am not DB Cooper

DB did use 550 cord... which is why he lost the bank bag and the money was found. Some things to consider which I have mentioned 2-3 times over the years: He cut a number of lengths of cord from one rig. He probably did his best to tie the bank bag with that cord. He could kneel on the bag or push it against a seat/seat bracket and tie the bag up like a Christmas present box. He probably would do that before putting the rig on. Five years or so ago, I was able to speak with the president of the bank bag company which likely manufactured the bag. We spoke for well over an hour because he remembered hearing of the hijacking when he was a young teenager and he was fascinated by the hijacking. He told me that his company, located in Alabama, was the largest mfgr of bank bags in the world with some huge percentage of the bank bag market. He told me that his company did not have records back as far as the crime date so he could not definitively say that his company made the bag but they were currently making bags for SeaFirst. [I think that is what he said is the bank company name now.] After the bag was tied, DB put the rig on and then attempted to tie the bag to either his body, as a FA said she saw him do, or tie it to his harness...or both. Doing the tying of the tied bag to his harness by himself would be VERY difficult IMO. Because I believe he was not a skydiver, or military jumper, he wouldn't know of the vortex of turbulence he'd be encountering on exit. Airtwardo and 377 and others have mentioned how severe the exit and turbulence could be. [I have not jumped from a 727 so I have no personal knowledge; I accept what Airtwardo and 377 say. [I have jumped from C-119, C-123, C-130 and various civilian aircraft. None of which had exit turbulence as described by various jumpers.] DB had no prior knowledge of the importance of having the bag tied VERY tightly and having it tied even more tightly and sufficiently to himself (body and/or harness). Whether he lived or not...he lost the bag. He did so because he couldn't hold it and tie a sufficient knot by himself. Too cumbersome, awkward and difficult to tie the 550 cord. I'm a rigger and think tying the bag would be very difficult for me, or anyone, without help. The bank president told me that the money could "survive" for many years tied in a treated canvas duck bag. He speculated that it could last for decades in the elements. He told me that they made various "models" of bag with rubberized "coatings" and impregnated sealants which would protect the money for years if the bag was tied tightly enough to have no movement of the money. He mentioned that a combination of wetness and abrasion would quickly degrade the money. Again, I submit that tying the bag closed with sufficient "tightness" would be rather easy. Certainly much easier than doing a good job of tying it to himself which would be exceedingly difficult. Occam's Razor indicates to me the following: 1. He lost the bag on exit because of the poorly executed tying to himself and the described turbulence on exit or opening shock. 2. The bag fell, in tact and tied closed, into an area within a flood plain of the river or directly into the river. Because of the bag type of material, the bag could exist for many years "in the elements". 3. 550 cord degrades in sunlight as does ripstop nylon. We all learned this early in our "packing" instruction classes. Over time the integrity of the combination of bag and 550 cord began to fail. 4. Either the bag moved by water flow from being in the river or by dredging. At some point, degradation of 550 cord and the canvas duck caused the bag to spill open. This process taking years. 5. I speculate that this degradation of bag/cord happened somewhat close in time to the money find which is the reason the money was found "together". Had the money been free of the bag for months it would be pulled apart and essentially destroyed by abrasion and water action. I'm a great believer in the Law of Parsimony and Occam's Razor. Oh, wait, I wrote that already. Applying both/either, I assume that no one subjecting themselves to what DB did that night is going to throw away money to "trick" the FBI/police. He's going to keep every bit he can...less the macho, braggadocious act of offering the FA a pack. Dead or alive it really doesn't matter except as an academic thought experiment. Simply put, he lost the money bag because he couldn't tie it sufficiently with integrity to "survive" the turbulence of exit/opening shock. Whether the writers, authors, house cleaners, poets, college professors, lawyers, little old ladies or retired cops make any money from DB Cooper remains to be seen. I know that I made many aircraft payments, paid a few riggers, ate some fine meals and had a lot of money to spend from the money I made because my advert caused the "average" person reading it to believe that I was DB Cooper. The newspaper articles written after the advert caused a huge bump in the number of our new students. Thank you so much DB Cooper where ever you are! Quade, you can close this thread down now...Everyone else: move along, nothing more to see here. Guru312 I am not DB Cooper

In the late 1960s, an older guy showed up on my drop zone and said he wanted to make a jump. I asked if he had ever jumped. He answered, "Yeah, a few at a bunch of different drop zones." After he said he had a log book, I told him to get his gear on, bring his log book and to meet at the PLF platform. He came strolling over wearing some really old coveralls with cloth military wings on his chest. I did a double take because the wings had two stars on each wing. I'm thinking, "...yeah right, this guy has four combat jumps?!" Thinking he's a huge bullshit artist, I motioned to the wings and asked him, "Where did you buy the wings?" Well, he went ballistic. He was quite sincere...in his anger. I thought he was either one hell of an actor or he had actually made four combat jumps. He rattled off where he had jumped when I asked him. He had jumped at Normandy and had landed about a mile outside of Ste-Mère-Église. His body language told me he was for real. I asked him how many people had four combat jumps; his answer was something like, "I think there's a hundred or so of us still around." He continued to jump with me for years and I ended teaching two of sons to jump. We remained very good friends until he died about 25 years ago. At his services, his wife and sons had created a display of memorabilia with photographs, medals and letters from his time during WWII. I was humbled by what I saw. He wasn't a bullshit artist; he was a genuine airborne hero!! RIP, Walt Santman...thinking of you now makes my eyes leak. Guru312 I am not DB Cooper

Oh god, why her? Ew. Wait!! You are from Australia. You prolly dislike her because she ignored you one time when you hit on her. Since typing the reference to her I found out she has made a few jumps. Maybe you'll bump into her on a Aussie DZ some day. Tell her I said "hello" if you do. Guru312 I am not DB Cooper

Ahem...needless to say, I agree with you but it sorta looks like you and I are in the minority here. Whether it's genetic...like a connection to the D4DR gene, or another gene, or something else...I think we look at life differently. The references to a few fights that people have seen...in decades of their own involvement in the sport...doesn't change my mind. If anyone disagrees with me I'll kick their butt. Guru312 I am not DB Cooper

Now that's what I'm talking about! I'm old. I've learned over the years that I really don't relate well to non-jumpers. It's an attitude or "something" which makes jumpers different. I spent...ah, I'm still spending!...most of my life as a business owner/entrepreneur and I have rubbed elbows with people at all levels of life and none of them, rich or famous, are more fun to be around than people who throw themselves out of perfectly good airplanes. With the exception of Nicole Kidman, I can't think of anyone I'd rather hang with than a skydiver. I would love to hear that she is a jumper. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if she is. Guru312 I am not DB Cooper

I don't know what "ITT" means; certainly not International Telephone and Telegraph. I have owned and jumped at mostly at 2 and 3 Cessna DZs. So...smallish. I don't have enough information to state that my experiences are different from others. That's why I'm asking what others think. From my experience as a DZO as well as ten years as a jump pilot jumpers are more respectful of others and they seem to have a more laissez-faire or live and let live attitude. They seem to be less physically confrontational and, in general, just more laid back and accepting of others than the non-jumping community. That's my observation over a whole lot of years of participating...and watching. I think jumpers are more individualistic and less conforming than whuffos which makes them seem more accepting of differences in others. I'll be 73 years old in March. My really close friends are jumpers who I have known for 30-40 years. My observation. I'm asking for yours...and others here. Nothing more than a curiosity. Even more simply put: I like the "attitude" had by people who jump out of airplanes. I guess it boils down to that. And you? Guru312 I am not DB Cooper