pajarito

Not by name, of course, but you do the math... coincidence? GENESIS OT (The Messiah would come from the Tribe of Judah; Talks of a ruler coming from the Tribe of Judah; one who’s rule will be all powerful) The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler’s staff from between his feet, until he comes to whom it belongs and the obedience of the nations is his. He will tether his donkey to a vine, his colt to the choicest branch; he will wash his garments in wine, his robes in the blood of grapes. His eyes will be darker than wine, his teeth whiter than milk. Genesis 49:10 NT *** List of Jesus' ancestors, going back to Judah, who was one of the 12 sons of Jacob. (Jacob's 12 sons were the fathers of the 12 Tribes of Israel). Luke 3:23-34 and Matthew 1:1-16 OT + NT Prophesy OT (Similarity with sacrificial offering of Isaac by Abraham) Then God said, “Take your son, your only son, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains I will tell you about. Genesis 22:2 NT For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. John 3:16 OT (Offered on a hill) Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains I will tell you about. Genesis 22:2 NT When Jesus entered Jerusalem, the whole city was stirred and asked, “Who is this?” Matthew 21:10 OT (Took donkey to place of sacrifice) Early the next morning Abraham got up and saddled his donkey. He took with him two of his servants and his son Isaac. When he had cut enough wood for the burnt offering, he set out for the place God had told him about. Genesis 22:3 NT Saying to them, “Go to the villiage ahead of you, and at once you will find a donkey tied there, with her colt by her. Untie them and bring them to me. If anyone says anything to you, tell him that the Lord needs them, and he will send them right away.” This took place to fulfill what was spoken throuth the prophet: “Say to the Daughter of Zion, See, your king comes to you, gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey.” The disciples went and did as Jesus had instructed them. They brought the donkey and the colt, placed their cloaks on them, and Jesus sat on them. A very large crowd spread their cloaks on the road, while others cut branches from the trees and spread them on the road. The crowds that went ahead of him and those that followed shouted, “Hosanna is the Son of David!”, “Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!”, “Hosanna in the highest!” When Jesus entered Jerusalem, the whole city was stirred and asked, “Who is this?” The crowds answered, “This is Jesus, the prophet from Nazareth in Galilee.” Matthew 21:2-11 OT (Two men went with him) Early the next morning Abraham got up and saddled his donkey. He took with him two of his servants and his son Isaac. Genesis 22:3 NT They crucified two robbers with him, one on his right and one on his left. Mark 15:27 When they came to the place called the Skull, there they crucified him, along with the criminals – one on his right, the other on his left. Luke 23:33 OT (Three day journey – Jesus: Three days in the grave) On the third day Abraham looked up and saw the place in the distance. Genesis 22:4 NT Now that same day two of them were going to a village called Emmaus, about seven miles from Jerusalem. They were talking with each other about everything that had happened. As they talked and discussed these things with each other, Jesus himself came up and walked along with them; but they were kept from recognizing him. He asked them, “What are you discussing together as you walk along?” They stood still, their faces downcast. One of them, named Cleopas, asked him, “Are you only a visitor to Jerusalem and do not know the things that have happened there in these days?” “What things?” he asked. “About Jesus of Nazareth,” they replied. “He was a prophet, powerful in word and deed before God and all the people. They chief priests and our rulers handed him over to be sentenced to death, and they crucified him; but we had hoped that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel. Luke 24:13-21 OT (Son carried wood on his back up hill) Abraham took the wood for the burnt offering and placed it on his son Isaac, and he himself carried the fire and the knife. Genesis 22:6 NT Carrying his own cross, he went out to the place of the Skull (which in Aramaic is called Golgotha). John 19:17 OT (God will provide for Himself the lamb) Abraham answered, “God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering, my son.” And the two of them went on together. Genesis 22:8 NT The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! John 1:29 OT (Son was offered on the wood) When they reached the place God had told him about, Abraham built an altar there and arranged the wood on it. He bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood. Genesis 22:9 NT When they came to the place called the Skull, there they crucified him, along with the criminals – one on his right, the other on his left. Luke 23:33 OT (Ram caught in thicket of thorns) Abraham looked up and there in a thicket he saw a ram caught by its horns. He went over and took the ram and sacrificed it as a burnt offering instead of his son. Genesis 22:13 NT The soldiers twisted together a crown of thorns and put it on his head. They clothed him in a purple robe and went up to him again and again, saying “Hail, king of the Jews!” And they struck him in the face. John 19:2 More OT + NT Prophesy Prophecies fulfilled by Jesus More prophecies fulfilled by Jesus Evidence for Jesus

Maybe within his group of friends. I'm not in the game right now (I was, though.) but I've got my own group of friends who currently are. They say just the opposite. I'm just saying that your opinion or that of your friends on this matter is probably not very accurate overall.

I seriously doubt that or the last time was Rumsfeld's only trips overseas to visit troops. He's been around a while. I'm sure it is good for PR but I also think he cares.

If he's friends with and thinks anything like you, he probably doesn't like Rumsfeld. No surprise there. However, I think you'd be hard pressed to try and show that the majority of the US military either doesn't support and like Rumsfeld, Bush, the current administration, or doesn't believe in the war that they're fighting right now. Think a friend of yours in Korea might be a biased sample? I think so.

For many of us, Creationism isn't folded around science. It's at its foundation. Science is the attempt to understand God's creation. Creationism just keeps the idea that God is ultimately responsible in perspective.

There isn’t evidence to show that it was written by anyone other than what it claims. However, I’ll get into that later. I have to leave soon. As for the accuracy of the text, if judged for accuracy and reliability, like any other ancient work is, on the basis of textual criticism, one must consider the following. ***Taken from a study by Don Stewart*** We need textual criticism because: 1. We do not possess originals and must rely on copies to reproduce the text. 2. Until about 500 years ago, all documents were copied by hand (manuscripts). The ones we have today differ somewhat due to scribal mistakes which have developed. 3. In the case of The New Testament, there is an abundance of material to evaluate. Primary lines of evidence: 1. The Greek Manuscripts - The Papyri – First group of manuscripts written on papyrus. (98 existing) - The Uncials (majuscules) – Carefully printed inch high manuscripts. (299 existing) - The Minuscules – Smaller manuscript used to produce copies faster. (2,812 existing) - The Lectionaries – Portion of Gospels read during service. (2,281 existing) - Total: 5,490 manuscripts - These are fragmentary and not necessarily complete. - The total number of surviving manuscripts is larger than all other ancient works. 2. The Versions - Translation of the various New Testament books into languages other than the original Greek. - Latin Vulgate – Over 10,000 manuscripts (may be as high as 25,000) - Ethiopic – Over 2000 manuscripts - Slavic – Over 4,101 manuscripts - Armenian – Over 2,587 manuscripts - Syriac Peshitta – Over 350 manuscripts - Bohairic – Over 100 manuscripts - Translation was rarely done because it was so time consuming. Only very important items were copied and great care and supervision was taken in doing so. 3. The writings of The Church Fathers - Quotations of the New Testament from their writings. - Even without all of the other evidence mentioned above, the entire New Testament can be reconstructed using only the writings of The Church Fathers. There is some variation within the text but a very small amount. Of the variations that have occurred, only about 50 are considered noteworthy and none of them affect Christian doctrine or the reliability of the text. Reasons to accept authenticity of the Bible: 1. The short time span between original and manuscript copies. - Codex Vaticanus (complete NT copy) was composed within 250 years of original writing of The New Testament. - We also have manuscript fragments dating back further. 2. The great number of manuscripts. - The more manuscripts available, the better the chances are of reconstructing the original. - It was rare to copy and even rarer to translate early works. 3. The lack of substantial variation between the manuscripts. - Of the variant readings that do exist, only about 50 are of importance and none of them affect Christian doctrine at all. This at least shows that the vast majority of the text we have today (and everything that concerns Christian doctrine) can be trusted for reliability. Whether you believe the testimony within it or not, however, is something else altogether. This is a snide comment. However, belief in Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy would in fact be considered blind faith. Given the above, belief or faith in what is in The New Testament is not. You may not agree with it but the Christian faith certainly has basis (and a lot of it).

An image isn't the real thing.

Including or not including a book in a collection of books known as the Bible is way different from altering text withing one of the books with the intent to change the message.

The Gospel of Thomas is also not included in the Catholic Apocrypha.

Ok....then I...uhhhh....agree with you. Just don't see as how it has bearing on the validity of the central message.

For whatever reason (unauthenticated authorship, uninspired quality, not shown authored by either Prophets or Apostles), the Gospel of St. Thomas was not included in either the Catholic or Protestant Biblical Canon. It has no bearing on the validity of the existing Bible. That’s not to say that it is wrong altogether and doesn’t have truth in it.

The Catholic Bible just contains some more books than the Protestant one. That doesn’t mean they’re wrong. It’s just that the Protestants don’t consider them to be inspired. It doesn’t necessarily mean that we’re right or they’re wrong. It does nothing to diminish the message. The "lost books" were never lost. These so called lost books were already known by the Jews and the Christians and were not considered inspired. They weren't lost nor were they removed from the Bible because they were never in the Bible to begin with. These so called lost books were not included in the Bible for several reasons. They lacked apostolic or prophetic authorship; they did not claim to be the Word of God; they contain unbiblical concepts such as prayer for the dead in 2 Macc. 12:45-46; or have some serious historical inaccuracies. These books were never authoritative, inspired, or authentically written by either the Jewish Prophets or the Christian Apostles. Do the lost books of the Bible prove that the Bible has been altered?

Correct. But show me one that has been intentionally altered with the intent to deceive. Just because they're not included in the Protestant Canon doesn't mean that they don't have some validity. Do the lost books of the Bible prove that the Bible has been altered?

The First Ecumenical Council held at Nicea in 325 was formed by Emperor Constantine in the 4th Century to deal with the false teachings of Arianism which denied the deity of Christ. Are you asserting that they altered the Bible in order to ensure the deity of Christ was mentioned? Early Trinitarian Quotes Nicene Creed

It’s ok to use supplemental material to aid in understanding the Bible. However, when that supplemental material teaches as gospel what’s not in the Bible, it ceases to be Christian and is considered a false prophet. Watchtower Society: False Prophet JW doctrine is not from the Bible alone Contradictions in JW literature I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book. If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophesy God will take away fro him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.” Revelation 22:18-19 The deity of Christ was recognized during his lifetime. It was part of the actual message of Christ and was vitally important. Without the deity of Christ, there is no forgiveness of sin. 1. If you really know Jesus, you know God as well. If you’ve seen Jesus, you’ve also seen God. Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.” John 14:6-7 2. The Holy Trinity “If you love me, you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever – the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.” John 14:15-21 3. He claimed to have existed before Abraham. “I tell you the truth”, Jesus answered, “Before Abraham was born, I am!” John 8:58 4. He claimed that he was equal with the father. “Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working.” For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. John 5:17 & 18 5. He claimed the ability to forgive sins. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.” Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, “Why does this fellow talk like that?” He’s blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?” Mark 2:5 – 7 6. Forgiving sins is something only God can do. “I, even I, am he who blots out your transgressions, for my own sake, and remembers your sins no more.” Isaiah 43:25 7. John equated Jesus with God and states him to be creator of the universe. “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning.” “Through him all thins were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. John 1:1 -3 8. The supremacy of Christ. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created; things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. Colossians 1:15-17 9. Paul said that God was manifest in the flesh. Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great: He appeared in a body, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory. 1 Timothy 3:16 10. Baptism in the name of all three members of the trinity. “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations baptizing them in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit.” Mathew 28:19 11. 3rd member of the Holy Trinity: The Holy Spirit “All this I have spoken while still with you. But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you." John 14:25-26

But that wouldn’t eliminate all doubt. If Noah’s Ark was found, it might prove that there was a flood but not necessarily that God caused it. If the Ark of the Covenant was found, it might prove that the stone tablets containing the 10 Commandments existed but not necessarily that they were printed on them by God. My point is, for some, no amount of evidence will ever be quite enough. With the preponderance of evidence that is there, there is still and will always be an element of faith. Blind faith, however, would be faith without evidence. I’m not vouching for the reputation of The Discovery Channel. Have you got good evidence showing that it didn’t exist, wasn’t possible to build, wouldn’t float, or couldn’t hold all the animals it needed to? How about space.com ? Granted, it’s existence hasn’t archaeologically been proven yet but they’ve been reporting of satellite searches of Mount Ararat for the Ark. Somebody must think there’s justifiable reason to look for it. Not vouching for scientific reliability on this one either. It comes from a Christian site. But it’s interesting. Could Noah’s Ark really hold all the animals? Just like the New Testament, there are no originals of Shakespeare’s works. Shakespeare I believe he wrote it, though based on the reliable writings and testimony of others. I believe that the idea that Jesus or the disciples never really existed is very much a fringe notion not held by most serious historians. The evidence just doesn’t point in that direction. Anyway, just a thought.

The Church of Latter Day Saints professes to be a Christian group but they are not. Any group or "sect" who does not acknowledge the deity of Christ is not Christian. Their Watchtower society is in fact a false prophet. Jehovah's Witnesses in a Nutshell Is the Jehovah's Witness Religion Christian? It's almost 1:00am here boys. I'll pick this up again manana. Sleepy time...

Why would those physical objects from that time make it clear in your mind the existence of an incomprehensible creator of the universe? What makes you think that? I actually saw a Discovery Channel special where Marine shipbuilding specialists concluded the opposite. Do you believe that the works of Shakespeare were actually written by Shakespeare?

Nothing real is ever as simple as you’re trying to make it. Other than all of the textual evidence (and I’m not just talking about the books of the Bible), here’s some: Jesus' Brother's "Bone Box" Closer to Being Authenticated

Within Christianity, a denomination is simply a roadmap to a destination. The denomination is significantly less important than the person (Jesus) of which it is about. As long as the map leads to the correct destination, it doesn’t really matter in the big scheme of things how you get there. There, however, has to be a belief in the deity of Jesus Christ, the Trinity, and his only means of salvation. Some of the cults you mentioned do not and, therefore, wouldn’t be a very prudent map to follow.

If they found those, would you then believe in God? How about if they located Noah’s Arc on top of Mount Ararat? Probably not, right? If, however, you lived in the time of Jesus, he told you that he was God, he performed miracles such as healing the blind, walking on water, and raising people from the dead, he foretold his own death, was tortured, crucified, stabbed with a spear to ensure death, buried in a Roman guarded tomb, rose from the dead three days later (as predicted by himself) to prove who he was, and ascended into heaven, would you believe it then? There are hundreds in the Bible who witnessed this.

Well...I say primarily the many books of the Christian Bible outlining eye-witness testimony of the miracles that took place and prophesy foretold. You'll then say that's not historically or textually accurate. We've been through all of this in great detail before. I'd recommend searching for threads such as "Religious Based Intolerance", "The Bible", and "Arguments for (or against) the existence of God." I believe that the preponderance of the evidence leads to accuracy more so than inaccuracy and reason to believe rather than disbelieve. That's just me.

I guess it all depends on what you qualify as evidence. If you reject what is there, I guess I can see why you'd call it all "blind faith."

It's all about Jesus. Why would I be in trouble?

And here is where you and I fundamentally disagree. I also give my children all the information they ask for. I also make it quite clear that they have free-will to decide what they feel is correct and that I cannot make that kind of decision for them. I, however, also tell them what I feel is correct and hope that influences their decisions. That’s my job as a parent. I believe that we are sinful and selfish by nature. I believe that we are separated from God by this selfish nature. I believe that the wages of sin is spiritual death and that God became a man in the form of Jesus Christ to pay the penalty for my sin with his torture, crucifixion, death, resurrection, and ascension. I believe that we will all face judgment for everything we’ve done in life when we die. I believe that, without accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior, one will be eternally separated from God (i.e. Hell; whatever that is exactly). That is what I mean by detrimental. I do not believe life ends when we die. Physically, yes. Spiritually, no. I, therefore, wholeheartedly believe that it is crucial that my children follow the correct path in life. I will do everything in my power to help them. Mostly pray for their salvation.