pajarito

Is it posible these guys were "freelancers operating outside the law and without the U.S. government's knowledge" It's more than possible, it's a fact. I won't give names but I've personally met with a person there who was doing just that. He wanted to work with my team and mutually share intel but we just took his and never gave him any of ours. We all thought he was a bit off his rocker but "they're out there."

Counted, recounted, confirmed, people gotta get over it sometime and stop whining...

ABSOLUTELY!!!

Not quite...but "whatever does it for ya!"

Nicely put!

You are completely ignoring the other side of the coin in this description which is equally shown to be true. The only way you can establish that fact is by ignoring the other one. I don’t believe that’s prudent. ---------------------------------------------------------- J.I. Packer states: - A paradox is a figure of speech, a play on words. It is a form of statement that seems to unite two opposite ideas, or to deny something by the very terms in which it was asserted. - The point of a paradox, however, is that what creates the appearance of contradiction is not the facts, but the words. The contradiction is verbal, but not real, and a little thought shows how it can be eliminated and the same idea expressed in a non-paradoxical form. - In other words a paradox is always dispensable. - Examples of some of Paul’s stated “paradoxes:” * Sorrowful, yet always rejoicing. * Having nothing, and yet possessing all things. * When I am weak, then am I strong. - Could have been written: * Sorrow at circumstances. * Joy in God, are constantly combined in his experience. * Though he owns no property and has no bank balance, there is a sense in which everything belongs to him, because he is Christ’s, and Christ is Lord of all. - A paradox is also always comprehensible. A speaker or writer casts his ideas into paradoxes in order to make them memorable and provoke thought about them. But the person at the receiving end must be able, on reflection, to see how to unravel the paradox, otherwise it will seem to him to be really self-contradictory, and therefore really meaningless. - By contrast, an antinomy is neither dispensable nor comprehensible. It is not a figure of speech, but an observed relation between two statements of fact. It is not deliberately manufactured; it is forced upon us by the facts themselves. It is unavoidable, and it is insoluble. We do not invent it, and we cannot explain it. Nor is there any way to get rid of it, save by falsifying the very facts that led us to it. What should we do, then, with an antinomy? Accept it for what it is, and learn to live with it. ----------------------------------------------------------

You're comparing the actions of a human being with that of the creator of the universe. I say there is an infinite difference between us and him and, therefore, the sacrifice would also be infinitely greater than that of even the most righteous person. Why would a completely holy God do what he did? I say it's because he loves all of us to that same degree.

Once fired upon, they should use whatever force is necessary to take the place down.

Too simplistic a poll. It's not worded correctly and it's more complicated than that.

My first log book was stolen along with all of my equipment out of the trunk of a friend’s car while I was teaching a HALO train-up course near Montgomery, AL. I don't have the original verbiage; however, it was kind of a fiasco. I skipped a day of high school and met my Dad, uncle, and many adopted uncles out at Moton Field (Tuskegee Airmen training ground), Tuskegee, AL. 20th Special Forces Group Parachute Club. I told myself at first that I wasn't scared but, looking back on the kinds of things I did, I was. My first jump was out of a CH-54 Skycrane Army helicopter from 14,000ft and my AFF instructors were Jimmy Horak and Warren (Toad) Bullen. I didn't do anything right. They even had to pull my ripcord. I landed almost right on the "X" but the dive was terrible.

Are you sure about that? We are all the same and God loves us all equally. You are just as important as anyone else. We each have a purpose in the grand scheme of things. By the way, I also enjoy discussions with you.

That seems somewhat easy to say but I wager something very much more difficult to follow through with in reference to you willingly giving in to that kind of torture and death. Jesus was a human being just like you and me. He endured persecution as well as one of the most gruesome forms of torture and death that I can imagine “willingly.” He felt the same pain and agony that you or I would feel and, in his time here, sacrificed tremendously because of his love for us. I agree with your definition of sacrifice above. I say that God became man, ultimately separated himself from his holiness while in that form, and gave up all that for you. You must be pretty important person in his eyes. I understand that you don’t buy this but it is an interesting conversation. I respect your opinion. Most of the topics discussed here are very trivial and boring. This, in my opinion, is one of the most interesting and important. Ultimately, it is the most intriguing topic as it deals with death and the “unknown” of many.

He did know he would be resurrected. However, you don't consider it a "sacrifice" that he suffered and died the human death that he did while he was here? Also, if you try and conceptualize the enormity of the holiness of God and realize that he did that at all (stoop to our level in order to reconcile with us), do you not see the huge sacrifice there?

The drunk driver wasn’t necessarily “doing God’s will.” It could be that God in fact “took” the person that was killed and used the “natural and predictable actions” of the drunk driver to accomplish it. It could also be that God used that tragic incident to influence others to come to God or to not drive drunk. On the other hand, the person killed could have not been a believer and God finally gave them over to their own desires/actions. He could have just allowed things to unfold as they did and that was simply all the time that person had to make a decision to believe or not believe. All of our times are limited. You never know when it will be your time. All we can do is be prepared. Edit to add for clarification: He didn't necessarily "make" the drunk driver do it. He could have just "allowed" the events to unfold as they did. It's not as important that the person died as to whether or not he/she was prepared to die.

My youngest boy is 2 years old. I pretty much understand and can predict what he’s going to do based on his previous actions. He’s always getting into trouble. I’m not controlling him when he does those things. I just pretty much can see them coming. However, I demand obedience when the time comes in certain instances. It’s for his own good. By the way, my Strawman is glued together pretty tightly.

From birth till gruesome death, he was very much human as witnessed by many. He didn’t have to do that. You’re just putting limits on his sacrifice stating that it wasn’t “enough” because he was also God. Nevertheless, it was a sacrifice especially for God. A completely holy God stooped to our level, took on human form, lived a human life, was persecuted, crucified, and killed in human fashion. You’re correct in that “humans die and don’t come back full functional in their original form.” Not without God. Jesus proved that he was who he said he was. Because I’ve got him in me, when I die, I’ll be restored with a new body as well when I die. Not because of my capabilities as a human but because I trust Jesus.

In the scenario you described above, you are correct in that they would have no choice in their actions (Like what I said previously about the robots). However, that’s not what I was getting at before. I said that God made you and he knows how you’re wired. He knows your tendencies. He knows how you’ll act if given over to your sinful nature. He knows how you’ll respond if he calls you. You do have free-will, however. He’s not making you make the choices that you do. He just knows you well enough to understand what you’ll do even better than you do yourself. Free-will – Pre-destination is a complicated discussion. Some describe it as a paradox showing and understandable contradiction between the two ideas and trying to deny one by the very terms in which it is asserted. I say that it rather an antinomy. We have two principles running parallel courses. They are seemingly irreconcilable, yet both undeniable. Sort of like the energy and matter properties of light. Neither is false and there are good reasons to believe each of them. It just is what it is.

That's awsome! Sounds like some of the parties I used to go to.

God knows your heart, the thoughts in your head, and the actions that you will take. He knows based on his influence or lack of influence within you what you will choose before you choose it. That’s different from saying that he makes you do something. He also gave you free will. You’re not a robot. You were made in God’s image but you are an imperfect being. Your tendency is towards selfishness. Without God’s input, you will “naturally” continue on that path. With it, you will “naturally” “choose” the way of God. Therefore, I believe that the test was more for Abraham’s sake. It was to strengthen his faith in God. God knew that he would have followed through with sacrificing his son and didn’t require it. Blood sacrifices were Jewish custom of the day. I can’t think of a more powerful display of love and devotion than to be willing to sacrifice your own son for another. In God’s case, he did that very thing for every person through his son Jesus.

If that's the case and also in response to "Peaceful" Jeffrey , I'd say they were justified. I'm ALL for people being able to own firearms and I think the whole "assault weapons" ban thing is a complete sham, however, you can't just go around stockpiling grenades and rocket launchers as a private citizen.

Didn't they have illegal weaponry such as hand grenades and the like stockpiled in there?

That is rather silly. However, the assault was justified in my opinion.

Why would got demand a needless sacrifice of a human being? Is this some Aztec or Incan god, demanding blood and killing? Man! Why did you have to go and ask a reasonable question? I thought this whole thread would just blow on by. It sounded rather silly to begin with and I didn't understand the purpose. Anyway, God didn't "need" a sacrifice. He was testing Abraham's faith. Would he have the kind of faith to sacrifice his own son for his God? He was not required to go through with it. He proved himself without having to.

Thanks! It's "open arms" in the sense that all are welcomed by Jesus. However, it's not a generalization. The first part might be considered a general description of all faiths. The second part, however, is only inclusive of those seeing Jesus as "the way, the truth, and the life."

What? Dude, you really need to speak up when you type! Heh, nice generalization. In my neck of the woods I would say the overall majority of jumpers tend to be conservatives. I think that's generally the case seeing as how skydiving originated with the military.