pajarito

True. I agree with your statement.

I don’t think that Christianity says that everyone else is “out of luck” as you say. I agree that there are many, who have never heard of Jesus by being brought up in a different part of the world, in another religion, or in no religion at all and, therefore, might not be held to the same standard as I am in reference to salvation. I don’t know what God has in store for them. I do know that all people have been made known to God’s existence through his creation, their sense of self and their innate basic knowledge of right and wrong (conscience). I also know, however, that those of us who have heard of or have had access to the truth will be held accountable and have no excuse. Also, I’m sure every religion out there claims to be the correct one, however, only Jesus proved his way to be the only way. No other religion has the verifying properties of fulfilled prophesy, miracles, eye-witness testimony of martyrs, torture, crucifixion, death, and resurrection of its lead figure who claimed to be God himself. That’s what sets Christianity apart from all the rest. It’s not about the “religion.” It’s all about Jesus Christ. You stated yourself that the Bible is written with divine inspiration. Sure, for various reasons, the text is presented in different ways by the different authors. However, “with divine inspiration”, the central theme of salvation through Christ from his own words is presented over and over, by different authors, in many different books of the Bible. Therefore, it’s not that you need to believe just because other humans are telling you what to do. It’s that you need to believe because God says so. I agree, if “religion” is the central part of your belief (whatever religion you may be referring to). First and foremost, you should look to God and, with Jesus in your heart; you then come together in the body of Christ (the Church). The religion or the religious organization should never supercede God. That is also known as idolatry and has been, as you say, misused throughout the centuries causing hatred, war, and pain. You are correct in that no human can understand God completely. Also, because of the sinful nature, no human can possibly serve as the “perfect penitent” and account for the sins of people where “justice” is necessary. God became man (Jesus), gave us a frame of reference to his character, and did what God himself, due to his completely holy nature, could not do. Repent perfectly, because he didn’t need to, on behalf of the entire human race and, therefore, reconcile the believers with God. He is the person in the middle of the road, whether you like it or not, and is the only way. You have that knowledge and are accountable. There will be justice in the end and you will stand before God in judgment for what you’ve done in your life. However, redemption is a free gift. You won’t earn it by doing good things. You just have to accept it. I fully respect your firm position and anyone else of another religion or no religion at all. Neither I nor any other Christian will ever convert anyone. They should also not take any credit whatsoever for any who do decide to convert. I’m just presenting the information. Nothing can happen in your heart in reference to conversion without God’s influence. If I happen to be influential in someone’s decision, it is merely because I am acting in the capacity of an instrument for God’s purpose. He is in control. Again, I fully respect yours and other’s positions in this discussion.

Very well. Then please ignore everything I might write in this thread labeled "Religion, who, what, and how do you believe/practice." It won't in any way be directed at you. Otherwise, I'd suggest looking at some other threads if you're not interested in hearing what's said concerning the subject at hand.

Ok...I disagree with just about all of this. I don't think Jesus could be described as militaristic as and even more so than the Romans in any capacity. However, what has this got to do with what we were talking about concerning the validity and applicability of the 10 Commandments and whether or not you and everyone else, including me, have been able to live up to them and, therefore, be seen as righteous in God's eyes? I’ll still comment on your quotes from The Gospel of Thomas: I’ve not read The Gospel of Thomas so I can’t see these verses in their proper context, but here is my take only on what you wrote based on what I know about Jesus. I could be wrong. This, however, in no way invalidates the accepted text. I think it’s saying here that Heaven is a spiritual thing and not someplace one can physically point to as a location. The capability to be right with God and achieve Heaven is also in each and every one of us. That’s called “free-will.” There is a “light” within a “person of light.” This sounds to me like someone who is saved and has Jesus living within them. It sounds very much like Jesus’ instruction to proclaim the “good news” to the world and is similar to the instruction listed in Matthew. ”You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.” Matthew 5:14-16 It sounds very much like Jesus is making an example of impossibility to prove a point. Kind of like saying something will happen “when pigs fly.” He’s saying that only when you are sinless will you be righteous before God and not be afraid or ashamed. They only way that’s going to happen is through Jesus. This sounds like a very nice example of Jesus’ claim of divinity. He is the “Alpha and the Omega”, “the beginning and the end”, and the “maker of all things. He is God.

No, but you obviously do. favaks I'm not making this stuff up. I don't claim authorship.

I find this very insulting to God. favaks Do you speak for God?

Ok...that threw me for a minute. You're pulling all that from the Gospel of Thomas, right? Maybe the vagueness of the passages you mentioned are one of the reasons it was not included in either the Catholic or Protestant canons. I don't know. Either way, it spells it out pretty clear in all of the different books of the accepted New Testament.

You are incorrect. Here's what Jesus himself taught his followers: Jesus told his disciples, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:6). He did not merely point the way to God. He himself claimed to be the only way to the Father and the source of eternal truth and life.

I don't consider it a shame for others to believe or think differently than I do. I shouldn't be the one anyone puts their faith in. If you do, then you'll probably be in for a very bumpy ride. I'm wrong every day. If I didn't care about the welfare of others, however, I wouldn't speak up at all. I do consider it a shame that so many can't see, for whatever reason, the truth spelled out and proven to be true by Jesus. I consider it a shame that others don't believe and think like him. There are many roads you can take in life. There is only one that leads to God. The others don't. If you saw someone standing in the middle of the road talking on their cell phone and not paying attention with an oncoming car about to smash into them, wouldn't you want to warn them to get out of the way? That's the idea.

QuoteHowever there are two more sets of commandments in the bible found in Exodus 34:12-26 and in Deuteronomy 5:6-21 , they are similar to each other but not exact, which shows to me that either: A. God allowed his words to be changed by whoever was writing each particular part of the bible, which if true then his words could have been changed in MANY parts of the bible or B. They are not the words of God, they are words of men living during that time who had similar ideas and values, just as if you look at the laws each state or city may have, they all say pretty much the same thing but they are a little different because they were written by different people.Quote Ok….let’s compare… From NIV Study Bible: The Ten Commandments, recorded here were written by God himself on two stone tablets and given to Moses and the Israelites. And God spoke all these words: “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments. You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name. Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the Lord your God is giving you. You shall not murder. You shall not commit adultery. You shall not steal. You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor. You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.” Exodus 20:1-17 ------------------------------------------------------- From NIV Study Bible: This was part of Moses’ farewell message in which he reviewed and renewed God’s covenant with Israel for the sake of the new generation of Israelites. They had come to the end of their desert wandering and were now ready to enter the land of Canaan. For the most part this new generation had no personal recollection of the first Passover, the Red Sea crossing or the giving of the Law at Mount Sinai. They needed an inspired recounting of God’s covenant, law and faithfulness, as well as a fresh declaration concerning the accompanying blessings for obedience and curses for disobedience. “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments. You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name. Observe the Sabbath day by keeping it holy, as the Lord your God has commanded you. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your ox, your donkey or any of your animals, nor the alien within your gates, so that your manservant and maidservant may rest, as you do. Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the Lord your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the Lord your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day. Honor your father and your mother, as the Lord your God has commanded you, so that you may live long and that it may go well with you in the land the Lord your God is giving you. You shall not murder. You shall not commit adultery. You shall not steal. You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife. You shall not set your desire on your neighbor’s house or land, his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.” Deuteronomy 5:6-21 ------------------------------------------------------- I’ve bolded the things that are different in Moses’ version as opposed to God’s. Moses didn’t write them both (speaking of the original tablets version). They say the same things, however. The wording, like you say, is slightly different but I don’t see as how one discredits the other due to that. For instance, if I say “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor”, doesn’t that mean the exact same thing as “You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife. You shall not set your desire on your neighbor’s house or land, his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.” ------------------------------------------------------- Exodus 34:12-26 deals mainly with ceremonial law. The 10 Commandments are considered moral laws. An explanation of the difference in the laws of that time, which I’ve posted before, is below: The commands of the Old Testament are divided generally into moral law, ceremonial law and civil law. The moral law (e.g., the 10 commandments) remain in effect and few people would question that. The ceremonial law (sacrificing 2 oxen, etc.) was fulfilled in Jesus' sacrificial death and the New Testament teaches that it is not binding anymore. The civil law (stoning for adultry, etc.) was the law of the nation of Israel, which operated as a Theocracy, and is not the civil law of any other nation.

It may be so that the word could mean both, however, in the context in which it was used, for example, in Luke 1:26-38, I think it is pretty clear that she was a “virgin” in the celibate sense of the word. In the sixth month, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you are highly favored! The Lord is with you.” Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. But the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favor with God. You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end.” “How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?” The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God. Luke 1:26-38 I’m pretty sure the tradition of the day was for women to remain pure until marriage. I think they took that seriously. The first sentence states that she was pledged to be married to Joseph. It even says later that Joseph was very upset when he heard about the pregnancy and remained so until God made him understand. When Mary spoke to Gabriel, she was skeptical of what he said to her. She didn’t understand how it could happen since she was a virgin and had never been with man. Gabriel even explained to her how it would be done by other than natural means. I also don’t think Mary meant, while responding to Gabriel, that she was a virgin in the sense that she was merely a young woman too young to give birth to a child. I don’t believe a translation error, if there was one, could explain away the virgin birth. I don’t believe any reasonable person who actually took the time to read the passages in context would.

I’m not trying to say that errors don’t creep into copies or translation. That has in fact occurred. I challenge you to find any of significance, however, that damage the foundational truths of Christianity. Jesus was a real person. Santa is fictitious. All I was doing was referencing a credible source. You do the same with any documentation of which you don’t possess the original. I’m not saying that what all other religions teach is wrong all through. There is usually a hint of the truth somewhere in most of them. However, the difference is in the final answer to the problem.

I agree that, if you live by what Jesus said in "The Greatest Commandment", you pretty much sum up what was declared in the 10 Commandments. However, what you quoted was just the second part. You left out the first and most important. Jesus replied, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: "Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." Matthew 22:37-40 Whatever inconsistencies or loss in specificity you think you might have found with the 10 Commandments from ~1,500 years before, should be checked against these to see if they've lost any meaning.

I believe we’ve discussed in great detail the reliability and historicity of the New Testament text which includes the statements made by Jesus. As for the reliability of what was originally stated in the 10 Commandments, it was also accepted as reliable and authoritative by Jesus himself. Granted, none of the people of his time actually saw the tablets. However, they knew the history tradition well and went to great efforts to preserve it accurately. I don’t know of any evidence that shows that there is error in the 10 Commandments specifically. They’re pretty simple and clear no matter how you might twist the words around. As for your example with the words kill and murder, you’re putting present day English definition to the words. If you look at the contextual setting, it is clear what was meant.

So your stand is that you refute the 10 Commandments because you believe that they've been changed over the years?

- And yet the 10 Commandments have endured, unchanged, and are as relevant today as they were ~3,500 years ago. And God spoke all these words: “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments. You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name. Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the Lord your God is giving you. You shall not murder. You shall not commit adultery. You shall not steal. You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor. You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.” Exodus 20:1-17 Condensed to: 1. You shall have no other gods before me. 2. You shall not worship any graven images. 3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain. 4. Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy. 5. Honor your Father and your Mother. 6. You shall not kill. 7. You shall not commit adultery. 8. You shall not steal. 9. You shall not bear false witness. 10. You shall not covet anything that is your neighbor’s. http://www.bible.com/answers/acommintro.html http://www.wayofthemaster.com

Your God, in your religion, you mean. That is correct sir!

I agree. Being religious doesn't necessarily make you a good person. I also believe there are a lot of non-religious people who do and/or are capable of doing good things. God's standard for goodness, however, is set forth in The 10 Commandments. I challenge anyone to say they've lived up to that standard perfectly. Therefore, I don't believe any person is "good."

I believe the most popular comparison is with that of Gilgamesh. Again, it really comes down to what you believe but this is an interesting article. The conclusion at the bottom addresses the "time of the event in relation to the writing of the stories" question. Just a viewpoint. Clicky

I'm a "spelling challenged" individual. My appologies again. Seaworthiness

I don't know if anyone will ever do it. I think that would be an extraordinary and expensive experiment. I would be interesting, though. I saw a special on TV on the subject and I believe a Navy shipbuilder said that at least the seaworthyness of the schematics of the Ark actually worked out.

There are just as many supporting the story of Noah as factual and not symbolic. http://www.carm.org/evo_questions/humanfloodfossils.htm http://www.carm.org/questions/noahsark.htm

Sorry.......poll....not pole.....I hate when I do that.

You've got to at least believe in “a God” to begin with. Until then, there’s no frame of reference to Matt 22:37-39. The pole at the top shows a majority of atheists and agnostics in the pool of dz.com responders. It's a shame but it appears to be true.

Really searching for the truth...huh fellas...