TomSpoon

Dave, Yes I have a lot of time on my hands. Lets just say that my situation is similar to skydiver51 who's jumping carreer has been ended by a Sabre 170. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=889215;search_string=skydiving%20and%20your%20neck;#889215 Though I hope to be back. If you'll notice I never said anything personally about the Sabre but simply held up a mirror so everyone can see themselves. It amazes me that someone can talk about a canopies poor opening characteristics in one sentence, than recommend it to a novice in the next. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=898077;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread I don't have it in for PD They make some very nice products but the Sabre is what it is.

Dear skydivingdutch, From your profile I see you only have about 65 jumps on your sabre. Here, hang on to this link. http://www.neckreference.com/anatomy.html You'll need it.

Did you know that TSA stands for "Takes scissors away"

Their was a load organizer at Z-Hills who had a Sabre 135 with over 6000 jumps on it. One day he had a line over malfunction that damaged the center cell. He sent it back to PD and after doing porosity tests they told him it was probably good for another 300 jumps or so if he wanted to invest in repairs.He declined and replaced it.

I got lots of new material for my collection of Sabre quotes. Seeing as the packing, design,pocket slider, stochastic variable thing has been beaten to death,If you insist on an arguement. Please save it for the other thread.http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=906637;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread Enjoy. Sabres do bang open on occasions - one damaged my neck and I was wearing a normal helmet’ “I saw video of a sabre opening that resembled a bomb going off:” “ The hard openings got so bad that I began to have a phobia about deploying.” “I got a enormous spanking on a jump in Skydive Arizona a couple of years back. Was in such agony i had to spiral down to get the weight on my feet and *off* the inside of my thighs. Bruising was quite bad” “Upon deployment I got absolutely SPANKED!!! Sore back, risers grazed my face and gave me a gash over my eye, threw my goggles around so I couldn't even identify my canopy's condition...I mean SPANKED” “I bought a brand new Sabre 135 in Jan 2000, and it often opened hard, and really beat the shit out of my neck on one jump” “Sabres have been known to slam their fair share of jumpers, “ “I had a Sabre and experienced a lot of hard openings” “I would say I have had half a dozen hard openings, but when it slams, it slams” “my first canopy was a saber 150 and it slammed me all the time! “ “ “When I had it relined, that's when it really started to pound me.” “I have seen a Sabre open in about 50 feet. I was videoing the student and he didn't have line dump. It was a brutal opening.” “I had a Sabre 190 which gave me a mild concussion on opening once” “So far, the only actual account we have as to what "might" have occurred at opening time is from the person involved -……….. He is in ICU and in a few days we'll talk with him again to see if he can recall anything else.” “i fractured my c6 on opening with a sabre135.” “Every 30 or 40th or so opening would either slam me or be a rock and roll ride“ ”although I did get slammed so hard it ripped my helmet right off once! “ “I have 150 jumps on one. The hard openings got so bad that I began to have a phobia about deploying “ “I had a Sabre and experienced a lot of hard openings. Didn't seem to matter how I packed it.” “on the 170 its smack smack smack.” “I have a Y2K Sabre150 with 200 jumps. The darn thing started spanking me BAD!” “The Sabre was notorious for hard openings. I spent a couple of days on a couch with ice on my neck.” “I've got about 50 jumps on Sabres, whacked four or five times out of that. No, I never could pack it not to whack,” “ have a sabre 150 and have something like 150 jumps on it and I've only had two or three extremely hard openings.” Sabres have a reputation for opening hard on occasions, and in my experience (250 jumps on Sabres), this is definitely deserved,” “I don't care HOW you packed them, eventually you were going to get the shit smacked out of you.” “I aquired bruises on my inner thighs and hips from one hard ass slammer Sabre opening....” “had an extremely hard opening... And got knocked unconscious. When I woke up, I couldn't see anymore... “ “it was a massively hard opening. I've seen pics of ripped canopies but nothing like this.” “I heard they will have hard openings... they weren't kidding. I jumped this canopy twice and the second opening rocked me.” “I used to just cringe right before I threw the PC when I had my Sabre. You just knew it was coming and there was nothing you could do.” “I packed his Sabre 170 ,to make a long story short he left in a van with lots of pretty lites on it “ “Yeah Sabres will do that. I had a hard opening on mine. 170, 1.45:1, opened so hard it broke the skin on my legs and left an outline of my legstraps.” “I would still get an occasional spanker even with a pocket slider,” “I have a Sabre 170 loaded at 1:1, and about 5 weeks ago I too had an opening that was so hard it left me groggy for a few moments. After about 230 uneventful jumps on that canopy, I had 2 brutal openings in 2 months” “I had a VERY hard opening about 5 weeks ago. Didn't fully lose consciousness, but was unresponsive for some unknown amount of time. No serious injuries--very painful stress fracture of the sternum kept me on Vicoden for 3 weeks.” “You may get slammed on occasion” “The Sabre 1 is known for slamming people” “Yes, sabres open hard from time to time.” “yes sabres's are know to whack ya every once in a while” “Yeah they open hard unexpectedly sometimes,” “Sabres will occasionally open hard,” “By reputation, some sabres open harder than others. “ “I got really hard openings every jump. “ “I got my teeth rattled a few times.” “My back -- like 4 years later -- is still sore from a sabre opening” “I don't like Sabress. All my experiences with Sabres's have been unpleasant. I primarily mean the openings,” “I have experienced the Sabre Spank' on a 150, and have the X-rays to prove it..” “I have a Sabre 190, and most of my opennigs just beat the crap out of me!!!” “I jump a sabre-1 and it's given me bruises a couple times,” “I have video of a sabre opening in about 75 feet, extremely hard “ “Openings were problematic at first,” “A lot of people complain of hard openings,” “Lots of u guys out there r trying to blame your hard Sabre openings on the pack job...” “I have approximately 1,100 total jumps on sabre 150's and sabre 135's and have experienced a handful of rather brisk openings and 2 of them were excruciating and kept me from jumping for the rest of the day.” “Openings are not so great. In my opinion it would be one thing if it opened hard all the time or soft all the time but it does not. Some openings are good others are not” “Pack carefully, handle the wraped up slider as you would an atomic bomb - as thats what it is! Let the thing slip everywhere then shove in the bag; You will be sorry..” “but about 75% of the time, I get these opening that make me flinch and tighten up every muscle in my body in fear of the opening. Most Sunday nights, when I am driving home, my neck hurts like I was in a car accident, and I have bruises on the insides of my legs that just shouldn't be there... I have tried everything- rolling the nose 4-4, tight rolling the nose together, tight rolling the tail, stowing my lines tight, etc... Nothing helps, don't know what to say about the opening, but I can't wait until I get my PISA Hornet...” “Openings have been brisk, but I've never been slammed (although I lent my rig to a friend and she said she was).” “I've had a very bad opening about every two or three. No matter what I did, tens of rolls everywere or no rolls, spend 1 hour and a half packing it,use the tighest rubber bands ever, it used to hit me.” “I had an instant canopy that knocked the wind from my body. I was in such pain that all I wanted to do was land. After landing discovered the leg straps had grazed the skin from my inner thighs. The next day I was barely able to stand and the black bruising around my thighs meant I looked like I was still wearing my harness.” “I was wacked so hard that I had a compression fracture of T6 and a cracked T12 along with a neck sprain.” “in my 90 jumps on it, I had 3 soft openings. This thing was killing me. I had it relined by PD as soon as I bought it and no matter who's advice I took or what I did, I was constantly seeing stars. I tried rolling the nose tightly all to one side and going to the back, I tried nothing with the nose, I tried splitting the nose, I rolled the tail unbelievably tight and still the openings stunk. After an opening where the slider came down fast enough to rip the rubber stops and put a rip in the slider and wrap itself around my face, so all I saw was the orange slider (nice backdrop for the stars), I got rid of it and bought a spectre 150, and will never look back.” ”Most of the openings on Sabres are ok, but it's those slammers! One in every 70 or so jumps, no matter how carefully you've packed, even if you've packed exactly the same as the last 70 pack jobs they can bite. I had one opening on my Sabre 135 that was so hard I thought I had broken a rib! I could give you plenty of examples of experiences friends of mine have had with bad Sabre openings... by and large the openings on the Sabre are fine but when they bite they're nasty!” “Used to fly a Sabre, and the openings where so bad I had no intentions of ever buying another one” “I jumped my 170 Sabre for about 40 times until I realized that my neck could handle about 50 more openings.” “harder than the saber i used to fly and that spanked me on a regular basis.” “This was welcome from the ever surprising Sabre slam that comes when you least expect it. “ “It just comes out of no where. Don't do anything different packing,and all the sudden your looking for the train....” “the sabre has a reputation for hard openings” “Any canopy that requires a modification to the slider to tame the openings has more than packing issues” ”i wouldn't wish one on my worst enemy....ok, maybe on my worst enemy, but nobody else...” “it is the lightly loaded sabre's that tend to be more violent openings. “ “I have been whacked a few times on the 150 and 107” “I've had a few harder openings,” “I had one that tried to kill me. Saw a Racer completely ripped apart by one.Met a girl from Virginia that has scars on her head from the halo head thingy after breaking her neck.All on 170s.” "Sabre 1 - reputation for hard openings - not all examples - can easily be tamed “ “My personal opinion is that the Sabre sucks. I can count the number of times I've been whacked under canopy on one hand and I think 4 out of the 5 whackers were under a Sabre.” ”I experienced the hard openings, still 'enjoying' one I had more than a month ago” “I'm getting a bit scared to pull: my poor back.” “best way to make a sabre open softer... Sell it.” “My Sabre 150 used to whack me every once in a while (bruised rib)” “Mine didn't slam me too badly until I had it relined” “I have had one extremely hard opening that about broke me in half,”

Stochastic process- An indexed collection of random variables. Thought I'd save you guys from looking it up. Tom

Finally, Aneblett gets to the bottom of this. The sabre opens hard because of a stochastic variable. Now we can finally close this thread. But first. Who's going to tell PD?

Dear scottjaco and Jejejeiie, With all due respect. With only about 150 jumps you guys do not have enough experience to comment on a canopy that whacks you once about every 70 jumps or so. From your posts I figure your hard opening rate is just slightly below average. Get back to us after a few hundred more jumps on your sabre and than let us know what you still think. Until then save this link. http://www.neckreference.com/anatomy.html

Here are just a few things FAR 135 would force A/C operators to do. I'm sure many of you can add more. Have an approved operations manual Have an approved Maintenance program. Establish and document times on A/C components Comply with TBO's on aircraft components Minimum 500 hrs and instrument rating for pilots Max duty time for pilots Annual check ride for pilots. Flight following Drug testing Written Load manifest and weight and balance for every flight. More restrictive oxygen requirements Second pilot required for some A/C 135.99 Public address system Req'd Just to name a few

I'm with Pilot Dave. The USPA would be most effective if they put pressure on jump A/C operators to voluntarily comply with safety regulations that make sense. BSR's for jump A/C if you will. If you want to read or comment NPRM 4521 go to http://dms.dot.gov/search/searchFormSimple.cfm type in "4521"

Apparently the USPA does think 135 will eventually cover jump A/C. That's why they are lobbying. And what has sense ever had to do with the FAA ?

Exactly. that is why skydiving A/C operators should clean house now before it's forced on us.

FAR 135 may be directed at aircraft and pilots but it will affect jumpers. It will force a shake out of jump aircraft operators and significantly increase the cost of your jump ticket. Yes maintenance requirements and pilot proficiency would not be a bad thing. Do we need FAR135 to get that?

The FAA recently extended it's deadline for comments on NPRM 4521 which would regulate air tour operators under the more stringent FAR 135. Rumor is Skydiving is next. Is this what we want?

North American F100 Sabre Lockheed AC130A Spectre Vought Sikorsky VS44 Excalibur Vultee A36 Vengeance Douglas X3 Stiletto Velocity Aircraft corp Velocity.[An experimental GA 4 place canard pusher.]

I know their is no airplane named the "PD 176R"

Are their airplanes named spectre and excalibur?

Thats nice PhreeZone. Now what's your suggestion for a name?

I know this is obvious but how about the "unsabre"

It seems a lot of people do not realize that the sabre2 is a diferent canopy from the origanal sabre. Seeing as the sabre had a bad, though well deserved reputation as a canopy with opening problems.What do you think PD should have named the Sabre2?

QuoteI am a newbie and did a whole lot of research prior to buying a rig and the majority of responses were in favor of the the sabre2. Quote This thread is not about the sabre2. That is a different canopy.

The sabre is not a sabre 2

After jumpingfarmers thread on sabres I thought I'd post some things that were said about this canopy. Listen to yourselves people. “Openings were problematic at first,” “A lot of people complain of hard openings,” “Lots of u guys out there r trying to blame your hard Sabre openings on the pack job...” “I have approximately 1,100 total jumps on sabre 150's and sabre 135's and have experienced a handful of rather brisk openings and 2 of them were excruciating and kept me from jumping for the rest of the day.” “Openings are not so great. In my opinion it would be one thing if it opened hard all the time or soft all the time but it does not. Some openings are good others are not” “Pack carefully, handle the wraped up slider as you would an atomic bomb - as thats what it is! Let the thing slip everywhere then shove in the bag; You will be sorry..” “but about 75% of the time, I get these opening that make me flinch and tighten up every muscle in my body in fear of the opening. Most Sunday nights, when I am driving home, my neck hurts like I was in a car accident, and I have bruises on the insides of my legs that just shouldn't be there... I have tried everything- rolling the nose 4-4, tight rolling the nose together, tight rolling the tail, stowing my lines tight, etc... Nothing helps, don't know what to say about the opening, but I can't wait until I get my PISA Hornet...” “Openings have been brisk, but I've never been slammed (although I lent my rig to a friend and she said she was).” “I've had a very bad opening about every two or three. No matter what I did, tens of rolls everywere or no rolls, spend 1 hour and a half packing it,use the tighest rubber bands ever, it used to hit me.” “I had an instant canopy that knocked the wind from my body. I was in such pain that all I wanted to do was land. After landing discovered the leg straps had grazed the skin from my inner thighs. The next day I was barely able to stand and the black bruising around my thighs meant I looked like I was still wearing my harness.” “I was wacked so hard that I had a compression fracture of T6 and a cracked T12 along with a neck sprain.” “in my 90 jumps on it, I had 3 soft openings. This thing was killing me. I had it relined by PD as soon as I bought it and no matter who's advice I took or what I did, I was constantly seeing stars. I tried rolling the nose tightly all to one side and going to the back, I tried nothing with the nose, I tried splitting the nose, I rolled the tail unbelievably tight and still the openings stunk. After an opening where the slider came down fast enough to rip the rubber stops and put a rip in the slider and wrap itself around my face, so all I saw was the orange slider (nice backdrop for the stars), I got rid of it and bought a spectre 150, and will never look back.” “I have had one extremely hard opening that about broke me in half,” “ ”Most of the openings on Sabres are ok, but it's those slammers! One in every 70 or so jumps, no matter how carefully you've packed, even if you've packed exactly the same as the last 70 pack jobs they can bite. I had one opening on my Sabre 135 that was so hard I thought I had broken a rib! I could give you plenty of examples of experiences friends of mine have had with bad Sabre openings... by and large the openings on the Sabre are fine but when they bite they're nasty!” “Used to fly a Sabre, and the openings where so bad I had no intentions of ever buying another one” “I jumped my 170 Sabre for about 40 times until I realized that my neck could handle about 50 more openings.” “harder than the saber i used to fly and that spanked me on a regular basis.” “This was welcome from the ever surprising Sabre slam that comes when you least expect it. “ “It just comes out of nowhere.Don't do anything different packing,and all the sudden your looking for the train....” “the sabre has a reputation for hard openings” “Any canopy that requires a modification to the slider to tame the openings has more than packing issues” ”i wouldn't wish one on my worst enemy....ok, maybe on my worst enemy, but nobody else...” “it is the lightly loaded sabre's that tend to be more violent openings. “ “I have been whacked a few times on the 150 and 107” “I've had a few harder openings,” “I had one that tried to kill me. Saw a Racer completely ripped apart by one.Met a girl from Virginia that has scars on her head from the halo head thingy after breaking her neck.All on 170s.” "Sabre 1 - reputation for hard openings - not all examples - can easily be tamed “ “My personal opinion is that the Sabre sucks. I can count the number of times I've been whacked under canopy on one hand and I think 4 out of the 5 whackers were under a Sabre.” ”I experienced the hard openings, still 'enjoying' one I had more than a month ago” “I'm getting a bit scared to pull: my poor back.” “best way to make a sabre open softer... Sell it.” “My Sabre 150 used to whack me every once in a while (bruised rib)” “Mine didn't slam me too badly until I had it relined”

Hedonism is a Party. http://www.superclubs.com/brand_hedonism/index.asp I hope your not planing on getting any rest. Their is a small commuter airline that flies from mbj to negril in a C206. Takes about 15 minutes instead of the one hour plus bus ride.I recomend it. But if you REALY like adventure take the bus.

Hey Jim, Who put all that white stuff all over your garage? Kinda warm down here at Frontier Skydivers southern division. [url]htttp/www.skydivecity.com[url] Come on down. Sure miss you guys. Tom