dgskydive

And most of those rules came about AFTER Vietnam thanks to the efforts of people like Kerry. Duriing Vietnam there weren't printed cards with the ROE, there wasn't yearly classroom training regarding the Geneva convention, there wasn't much of anything done to educate soldiers about the the international laws of warfare.Rules such as being allowed to burn down and kill the occupants of a village if they are ordered to surrendur (in English) and don't if you suspect that they may be harboring rebels. I dont see this statment as totally accurate. The same rules have been around before Veitnam. They have evolved since then is all. The soldier in the field in Veitnam knew the difference between right and wrong.They knew what they could and couldn't do. A big problem in Veitnam was that tactics a lot of the time where left up to individual commanders, all the way down to the company level. So the ROE became diluted. There where two many chiefs and not enough Indians so to speak. Plus it was very hard for them to know who the enemy was over there. Much like it is in Iraq. One day this little kid may be taking candy from you and call you "#1 GI". The chick that you where falling in love with at the bar last night and gave you the best sex of your life, may have been carrying a AK47 the next day and trying to kill you. I am not saying that excuses murder or the horrific acts that took place over there at all. Just pointing out things that can make any man scared enough to shoot someone without using his powers of reasoning to there fullest before he pulls a trigger or sticks someone with a knife. I am here to say that soldiers in this day and age know the difference for sure. They are trained extensivley for these stiuations. I can't count the weeks I spent training for these types of situations. I also can't count the number of times I was put on "trail for Murder" for breaking the rules of engament. It is not as cut and dry as you thinkk it is. you figure it would be as simple as "There is the enemy go kill him!" It is not that easy....ever! Dom

No disrespect is ment to you with what I am about to say. So, please don't take it that way. Your speculation is based on what? Only what you think you know. Only what it appears to be. You have no foundation for your idea that they just wanted to cover it up and hope nobody noticed. Appearances are not always what they seem. My statment is based on almost 10 years service in the U.S. Military and a understanding of how the Military works and why it works that way. You said that they had already had a month to figure out who is involved. That doesn't mean anything. A month is a very short time to figure out who was involved. The Military will be very meticulous when it comes to finding out why and who is responsible. You are just assuming that since they have pictures of these soldiers it is a done deal. They know who it is. That is not the case. Nothing is that Black and White. The Military wants to know, did they do this on there own? Did they act under the orders of there commanders? Did the "CIVILAIN CONTRACTORS" order them to do this? Is the NCO in charge telling the truth when he says he was encouraged to keep doing this? By Whom? All this taakes time to sort out. Of course everyone is going to try and cover there ass and point the finger. The Military has an obligation to protect the innocent as well.They don't want to rake someones name through the mud if they didn't have anything to do with it. It would really suck for people to be named and find out later that they had absolutley nothing to do with it at all. The Media doesn't care about htings like that. They just want the story. Be damned if they name someone that had nothing to do with it. Once your name comes up in something like this. It will follow you forever even if you are found innocent later on. As an example of how the miltary worries abou tstuff like this. Myslef and another soldier where accused of Arson while I was stationed in Germany. The owner of a bar said that my freidn and I had used the bathroom above his bar and then we left. About 10 or 15 minutes after we left the place went up in flames! Burnt right down to the ground. The first thing anybody said was "The two Americans went up there! They started the fire." One guy said he even saw us come out of the bathroom and smoke was already coming out of one of the stalls. We did go to the bathroom, He may have seen smoke as well. I was smoking a cigarette when I was coming out of the bathroom. But did I start a fire? HELL NO I DIDN'T!!!!!! After a full investigation by the Military and the German Authorities they concluded that the fire didn't start in the bathroom after all. It was started in a room down the hall by some one that let a cigarette fall onthe floor that was still burning. When he hears people outside start saying it was the Americans, he played along so he didn't get in trouble. The Military wouldn't allow our names to be released to the public. In fact all they would say was there was a fire and the possiblity that it was two Soldiers that started it was under investigation. Thanks God they didn't release our names. They whole post would have been alive with Gossip and the Germans would have wanted to hang us fromt he highest tree they could find. Dom

Yes it is a stretch. Especially in this day and age. I joined in 1989. When you first join the military you are requiered to learn your General Orders (help me out here Pajarito). They talk about basic duties and how a soldier will follow the "LAWFUL ORDERS" of their Superior Officers. It has been so long since I had to remember them. It is very clear to a new soldier what you can and can't do to a POW. It is made very clear how to treat them. Plain and simple...... you treat them with as much respect and humanity as possible. If they try and hurt you or your fellow soldier than you can knock the crap out of them until they are under control again. Hell that is just self defense at that point.... but if they are compliant and not posing a threat to you well, you treat them better then they treat your buddies that may be a POW. This is also part of winning hearts and minds. Dom

That is exactley why the staments made by the guy in charge of those soldiers are so ridiculous. These guys are MP's they know what is and isn't exceptable treatment of POW's. They train for that there entire carrer in the Army. This guy knew what he was doing was wrong and should be thrown in jail and the key should be shoved up his ass. Dom

Then that is speculation on your part. The military does things differently. I am sure they would have rather that nobody knew about this at all. Do you really blame them for that? Also this is a sensitive issue for them. How would they look if they jumped to conclusions about who or why this was done. Then they are double screwed. Not only did it happen but they don't know who and why for sure. Dom

I never said they didn't know about the incident. That is not speculation. That is how the U.S. Military works. Dom

They needed to find out who to hang other then the soliders involved. This General that they are naming, was probably totally unaware that this was even happening. When something like this happens, heads roll all the way up the chain of command. These soldiers will see some sort of jail time I expect and some senior NCO's and Officers will be retired early. This may seem like nothing to some of you, but to be forced to retire for a situation like this is a huge thing. These officers and NCO's will be held accountable for the acts of those under their command. Dom

I met a guy year or so ago that is the the British Military. He is a young guy about 21 or so. I forget the exact name of the unit, but they are the ones that pull guard duty at Buckingham Palace. You know the ones we Americans love to take pictures with and try to make them smile. Well this young guy also has served in N. Ireland. He told me many stories of how he and his buddies thought it was real funny to kick little Irish kids when they walked by. He told me stories of how they beat the crap out of guys and how it was something they sometimes looked forward to when they where bored! Does this mean that every British Soldier in N. Ireland is an ass? I don't think so. Just means that this guy and his buddies are jackasses. Does it mean that we should never trust the British military again. No, it means that they have individuals that aren't playing by the rules. They will I am sure one day they will get caught, and I am sure they will be delt with accordingly. Dom

I second his statment. I have a feeling he has seen a bit more then I have, but the fact remains. These are isolated incidents. If you put 99% of the other soldiers in the Army in that prison, this would have never happened. Dom

Thank you. Dom

I am not trying to say "hey they did it first, so we should be able to do it as well". In fact if you read the first paragraph I wrote, I said how I feel about this. I said "two wrongs don't make a right" What my mom did teach me was to not sit on a high horse. Like some people do around here. Dom

First of all I am very upset about this. Those soldiers should be put away for a long long time. They are a disgrace to themselves their families and the entire United States!!!!! In know way is this type of action excepted! This thread has also shown that some of you are really ANTI American PERIOD! Why don't you just come out and say "I hate the United States!" A few of you live in a real dream world. People make mistakes. Individuals will always make it harder on a large group. You guys are so quick to bash the U.S. and it's soldiers. Never mind that there are 100's of thousands of our troops over there that do the right thing everyday. Someone said that the Iraqi's are treating their prisoners right. Take a look at the situations. The Iraqi's have dragged U.S. civilians through the streets and ripped them to pieces. When they had POW's at the start of the war, they kept them close to the fighting. Why would they do that. Because they know that we won't blow up the buliding they are in if we think our troops are in there. If they weren't using them as shields like that, they would have killed them or at least tortured them. Two wrongs don't make a right. Just don't go and try to make the IRaqi's out as saints. I think it is funny that the people that are always criticizing the U.S. in these forums are from countries that for the most part haven't done anything to help another country. THey come from countries that sit back and watch things happen in the world. They think it will never effect them. Just let the rest of the world do whatever they want. WAKE UP YOU FOOLS! DO you honestly think that people like Saddam Hussein and OBL just suddenly stop the things they do if the U.S. pulled out of Iraq and Afghanistan today? Do you really think that as long as the U.S. sits on it's hands and stays out of foriegn affairs that the world will get along better? Are we supposed to sit back and wait until Europe gets off it's ass and does something? Let's not forget what started this. Something about planes flying into buildings and hundreds of innocent people being killed. You think those people that jumped from those buildings weren't being tortured? What makes a person jump from a buliding like they did? Pure hell! That is what made them jump. What about the people that where in those planes. They knew they where gonna die. They could see out the windows. They knew they where going in. You don't think that was torture? What about the people who saw it on TV? They watched as there loved ones died in those buildings and somedidn't know for days after if there family members where alive or dead. Isnt that torture? Don't be so quick to judge a whole nation by what 6 people did! That is like me saying "You can't trust Germany ever again because Hitler and his goons killed so many Jews" That is stupid. I knew many Germans and I love ther country. I have lived there and would love to go back and stay for longer next time. The Nazi's are a blemish on an otherwise great country. Just like these soldiers are a blemish on an otherwise great country. Don't be so self righteous. Europeans have commited more acts of murder against other races then anyone else. Dom

Wow, your new Avatar is so hot it is on fire!

Dom

My heart goes out to all of his family! Dom

That's me on the right. Check out the effect on yours. Figure the red fits the heat you are throwing off. Dom

OMFG! Just wrong Mark! Dom

Spanking for all at the Boogie. Well at least some of you Dom

Bastards one and all! Except Jeanie. SHe has a cool rig. BTW Rem how are those risers? Dom

Yeah for you!!!!! Get some pics up soon! Dom

SHHH!!!!! You will ruin my image. Dom

All in jest.

Welcome to Perris and skydiving. Dom

Are those fromthe photo shoot you where talking about? That second one.... mmmmmmmm! Dom

So, Lany. Got anymore shots for us to look at? [begging please] Dom