mikkey

Give Don Cross at Nagambie a call (or e-mail). He is not a rigger but sits on both the Victorian Parachute Council and the Board of the APF. He would know or be able to guide you towards the right person. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

This was posted in Talk Back: And this from the Incident forum: --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

I also noticed that some of the very vocal opponents of any regulations have 100-300 jumps and are very dismissive of what very experienced jumpers have to say. On the other hand, just because somebody has not thousands of jumps does not mean they do not have the right to an opinion and have valid points (and not all guys with thousands of jumps are always right). Key is that everybody should respect the others opinion and be open-minded. Do we want to have a pissing contest or do we want to find a way forward? I do not have huge amount of jumps, but I have been involved in the sport on and off for 25 years. What upsets me is that the equipment is so much better and potentially safer then it was it the 70's and at the same time it allows for more "fun" in the sky. I think these canopy fatalities and injuries are mostly "unnecessary" because they can be avoided by better training and more controlled progression. I jump because it’s fun and not because it is dangerous. I do not like skydivers who are primarily motivated by danger and risk. Yes there is a risk and I like the idea of being responsible for my own safety to a large degree. But the equipment and technology we use today has potentially lowered this risk and that should be a good thing. 25-30 years ago you could be killed much easier even if you did not fuck up. Container and harness systems, deployment systems, cut away systems, clothing, helmet design, main and reserve design, etc. etc. "aides" like dytter and cypres, as well as better understanding of aerodynamics that has led to better training methods - all this has made it more safe and more fun. So it really pisses me off to see people getting injured or killed under perfectly good canopies. I do not understand why some people think that danger and "Darwin" are good for the sport. What's fun about scraping people off the ground? I rather have a few beers with them after a fun day of jumping. The canopy control issue is the greatest challenge for the sport and I think the discussions here on dz.com are very useful. I just hope everybody agrees that the purpose has to be to minimize the number of accidents. I just stood last Sunday at my DZ and watched a widow, her son and some close friends standing at sunset on the spot where a very nice bloke got killed in a hookturn exactly 6 month ago. I then went home and read dz.com and got extremely annoyed when reading comments like "hey its dangerous, that’s why its fun, - let Darwin rule - freedom is more important then safety etc. etc." Maybe some of the more "heated" discussions about Canopy restrictions are based on the difference in "reason" why people jump or what they enjoy in the sport. I want as much safety as possible, others might want maximum "thrill". Anyway, I think the discussions in the S&T forum are very useful, however it would be nice if some people would show each other a little more respect. Apologies for the ranting, just felt like it..... --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

The problem is that you call points made by people with lots and lots of experience "invalid" - but yours are "valid". You might want to think about this - do you want to convince people or piss them off? A few people would be in disagreement with that - even in the US. It should not be a right if it does affect other people in a negative way or even endangers them... drink drivers are stupid and we do not tolerate them (I hope). The key to a good discussion is to try to understand the others persons viewpoint and show them a little respect. If you don't do that you just have a "fight" - and thats really not the purpose of the forum. I hope you understand what I am trying to say. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Interesting point. I have a new rig and people have been recommending NOT to put silicone on it, just to clean with a clean cloth once a month or so. Hook: Any comments? --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

I think some people need to have a think about if they really want to DEBATE this important issue or if they want to piss people off. Do we want an informed debate that can help finding ways forward on this issue or do we just enjoy winning a pissing contest i.e. arguing for arguing sake? --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

What I do not understand is that why your DZ is accepting the behaviour? If staff at my DZ had to ask a visiting group more then once to follow DZ policy they would be grounded / shown the door. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

I live outside the US, but I am following this discussion with great interest as the WL issue is a problem around the world. I know most Yanks think that nothing of interest exists outside Gods own country - but while you guys are discussing this so passionately and are looking for ideas - why are you not looking outside your own backyard and use some of the experience gathered in other countries? To my knowledge rules and regulations in regard to canopy sizes and WL's exist in most European countries. I sit at the other end of the world and have no idea about the detail and how well it works. It may be of use for the discussion in the US to make a list that shows: Country, Regulation, time since implementation, implementation issues, effect on injury / fatality rate, general feed back. Dz.com has users in most countries and they may be able to compile some of the data. I fully understand that European style regulations would never be acceptable in the US, but I think some of the experience with the regulations could help you in your search for a workable solution for the US. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Thats what my wife always tells me.... --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Go to the APF web site, you can see what is involved. As far as I rember you need to demonstrate accuracy, do conversion jumps to sports rig, get approved to pack you rig and so on. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

20 years ago. Shattered ankle, fib and tib. 8 nails, 2 plates, 12 screws. But I was lucky - low reserve pull with a round reserve. Fully deployed at treetop height, one swing to the left and "bang". --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Your answers show the opposite of what yoy are claiming here. "Apparantly" - how do you know. Skydiving became a "sport" with a broad base when it stopped being a dangerous "stunt" and it become a structured "sport" with better and safer equipment and rules. Now this just shows your . . . Please try to keep this discussion civil without resorting to insults. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

So experience and age is a bad thing? Skydiving should be as risky and unsafe as possible - then it is more fun?? Give me a break. Yes, people who are older / have more jumps seem to be more concerned about this issue. But not just because they have more responsibilities e.g. kids. There are a number of reasons: 1) It gets depressing to see people die and unsafe jumpers are not just a danger for themselves. It does affect your enjoyment of the sport. Not all of us think it is "cool " if the sport is more dangerous then necessary. 2) High fatality and injury rates do affect the sport negatively: Insurance, potential regulations, hostility towards DZ's by the community, pressure by family etc. 3) I like to see more people getting into the sport. That increases the opportunities to jump (more jumpers, more DZ's, bigger planes, cheaper equipment etc.etc.). Making it a sport for people that just "want to push the envelope" is IMO stupid.It is an aerosport like flying and I for one like to make it as safe as possible. If you like to perform an activity in order to "push the envelope" and demonstrate what a cool guy you are, I suggest you go out somewhere isolated and do some free climbing - by yourself. Or if you have to jump - do some BASE - by yourself. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

As mentioned I ordered the VHS (PAL) copy from Klaus Heller in Germany and now had the video for a few weeks now. It is excellent and of good quality. The video contains: Sky Dive, Wings, Masters of the Sky and Sky Capers. I really enjoyed watching these again and singing along to the excellent songs (after a few cold beers). Was very appropriate for me to get them now - it is exactly 25 years since my first jump and they used to show these on 16 mm in my parachute club when I started. Remember I thought at the time the US exhibition team were "gods". Took the video to my DZ a couple of weeks ago and showed it to those "young fellows". Interesting reaction. Most could not believe how accurate people landed with roundies and the "bulkiness" of the old equipment. But those young people have no taste in music they turned down the original music and put their "modern" stuff on while they were watching . Made me feel old... --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

I mentioned earlier in this thread that if we can not talk to the dead jumpers, we should at least listen to the ones that survived these types of accident and I posted something from the incident forum. Here is another quote from the forum regarding the incident in Elsinore where a guy with 50 jumps and somwhere between 1.2 and 1.5 WL (conflicting information) barely survived: We should maybe pay more attention to those who experienced this situation. From where I stand, these accounts make clearly the case for some kind of regulation / guide lines in combination with structured training programs. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

a) I assume you are a "Pom" (british) b) You learned skydiving in New Zealand Conclusion: We make you pay for the beer all night

Good Point. If you rent gear and pay for it, it is the DZ's responsibility to ensure the Cypres is on and functioning. Not only should they not charge rent, they should also refund the jump ticket. Contrary to some I think the student should land if the Cypres was off. If you have a rule that says that students need Cypres - you better stick to it. 1) You either have a rule or not 2) If that studentyhad gone in on that jump (and Cypres was off) the lawyers would have had a field day, i.e. the DZ and the instructor would have been liable. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

You are a fucking Troll. Go away. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Welcome to Victoria

Here is a quote from the incident forum where "skymick" is decribing his accident during a fun accuracy competition: (I changed the key text to "bold"). As far as I know, Mick has about 250 jumps with about 100 the last 12 month and uses a Sabre 150 at 1.4 WL. Now to my point: It has been mentioned before in this discussion that we can not talk to the dead jumpers, well let's listen to the ones who survived. Notice the " I fxxed up but I do not know why " part of the quote. We all f*ck up under canopy and we tend to f*ck up more - or have less skills to recover -when we have less jumps or / and less training. The higher the WL (combined with type of canopy) the worse the consequences of a f*ck up. We can not run away from this fact. So, IF you want to reduce fatalities under canopy you have to EITHER limit people in regard to what they jump OR you have to train them better. Now as "billvon" and others have pointed out - if you want people to get better skills you have to "force" them. Why do people complete training to achieve certain licenses? Because they then qualify to do certain things they like to do - you want to do display jumps, you train and you get a display license. Same should apply for canopy control. The guys who are aginst any regulations and tell us that they are doing just fine with their canopy would have no problems passing this type of canopy control course to qualify for their personal WL. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Dont't have one, but if the Skyhook becomes available for my rig I will get it. Skyhook will get reserve out quicker without line twist. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

"The Chuteless Jump August ’69 marked the beginning of Bill’s troubles with CSPA. He arranged with a promoter to do a jump without a parachute, flying over to another jumper and snapping a reserve on to his harness. Murray Smith was to film the jump and Larry Costello would hold the reserve for Bill. Over Aug. 18 and 19 Bill and Larry made 4 practice jumps over Parkman, Ohio. Because of the weight differential, Bill made these practice jumps without a reserve chute. Because the jump would be illegal in the US, on Aug. 20th Bill and Larry took off from Ohio in a Beech 18 and flew across Lake Huron to Centralia, near Grand Bend, Ontario. They exited at 13,200’, with Murray Smith filming. Unfortunately, while on the practice jumps Bill had worn a parachute which constricted his jumpsuit, for this one he wore the harness under his jumpsuit with just the risers exiting slits on his chest and running down his arms to the D-rings he would snap onto the reserve. Because there was no harness over his suit he began to have problems floating – he managed to get down to Larry and deploy the reserve, opening at 3000’, but Murray had sunk away and they had virtually no usable film after the exit. It was Bill’s 436th jump." --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

No, it is correct. I saw it many years ago on TV. If I remember right, one jumper had an old style (belly) reserve in his hands (might even have exited from a second plane - not quite sure). The other jumper had a harness on with 2 "risers" along his arms with D-rings in his hand. He then flew to the buddy and hooked the 2 rings onto the reserves (chest) attachment points (snap locks) and pulled reserve. I saw a documentary about it with the practise jumps etc. I think it was a well known stunt man and that it was in the 80's. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

I get annoyed when people do not treat this issue seriously. Above is a "nonsense" argument and you know it. Very close to saying: "you might as well ban skydiving" - (guess what, if people die like flies they probably will in some countries....) This is a serious issue for serious people. Respect each others opinion and do not get into the BS "throwing". Won't help anybody.... --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

There are good points being made in this thread and then there is BS. "I'm for natural selection. " So you like to see more people killed under canopy as a way to improve the average canopy skill level?? "The gene pool is already getting thin with AFF programs graduating students that cannot spot, cannot pack and are scared to get out below 6K. " So you want different / stricter education? So more regulation for beginners? But no WL regulation? Or in other words: What are you on about?? --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.