Ron

Why don't you stop the BS? Your comment is stupid, rude, and not true. I HAVE read a good portion of the bill, I don't watch FOX news... Don't blame ME since YOU can't have polite discourse with facts. So, no... you do not expect everyone to pay for it. Fact is your type have not been able to show how this would be any different than any other program. How about you provide some facts instead of hype and BS? So you WOULD rather just ignore the problems and sit in a circle and chant. Your inability to answer these types of questions makes your position look weak. YOU WANT TO IGNORE THE PROBLEMS...... That just makes your position look all the weaker. Clearly I have read more than you. YOU were the one saying they are competitors.... *I* am the one saying that the USPS is BY LAW allowed to own a significant portion of business. YOUR position is the one that is invalidated. Your information is incorrect. I have worked in this industry for 18 years..... You? You need to read the bill and be able to defend it from YOUR OWN EXAMPLES. Why should everyone subsidize YOUR choice? You just want ME to pay for something for YOU since YOU don't want to pay for it. Your own sigline supports that opinion of you. I backed up my source and my numbers... You have lost. Don't blame ME for you being too lazy to provide data and YOUR inability to refute data. Hint: Saying, "That's not true" in light of supporting documentation just makes YOUR position look weak. I am and I have already done that... It is YOUR job to refute it with more than BS. Im trying, you just don't like looking foolish so you play stupid games. You asked for a cite, I provided it, then you claimed it was too much work to look at it. LAME. Clearly I have read more than you. More importantly, I am willing to back up my arguements which is something you are unable/unwilling to do. You are right about one thing.... There is little value in this discussion.... Simply because YOU are unable to have a discussion using facts. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Shipping to the manufacturer does not fall under the Gun Control Act of 1968. Shipping to yourself is allowed as well. If you directly ship a firearm to someone else (A non-FFL) out of state, it is against federal law. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yes and we have heard the left say it as well. ""It's the economy, stupid" was a phrase in American politics widely used during Bill Clinton's successful 1992 presidential campaign against George H.W. Bush. For a time, Bush was considered unbeatable because of foreign policy developments such as the end of the Cold War and the Persian Gulf War. The phrase, coined by Clinton campaign strategist James Carville, refers to the notion that Clinton was a better choice because Bush had not adequately addressed the economy, which had recently undergone a recession." "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

If you read the quote again, you will see it has two parts separated by the AND. But YOU clearly dodged the question.... How do you expect to pay for this program? Are you going to start taxing those that currently pay no taxes? Are you going to ignore all the issues that influence the HC problems? Coverage of illegals adds COST with no remuneration and creates a situation where the program cannot be sustained. Not having a program that does not add to the deficit means the program is bound to either fail, or take something else down to try and keep it floating. You think that just passing a bill means it will work? You think just throwing money at a problem is the answer? How do YOU plan on paying for this bill? Are you going to tax people who currently DO NOT pay taxes? How are you going to absorb the cost of illegal HC? All of these are issues that need to be solved, not ignored. By law THEY ARE NOT ALLOWED. I bet you never sent a non-urgent service letter with UPS. I don't know how much clearer that could be... I cited the names of the law as well AND gave examples. You can't just ignore the facts when it does not suit you. You need to read my example again. For the USPS example you claim to be the same as the medical issue.... Then the Govt would pass laws that ONLY Govt Dr's could perform certain functions and that it would be illegal for private Dr's to perform those functions. They are nowhere NEAR the same. Not everyone wants their HC in the hands of the Govt. The same Govt who did syphilis testing on civilians. AND you know that would never be the case. People want HC for free... Next they will want the same HC Bob gets for free. Ever had US Govt HC? I have and I can tell you that my private Dr is MUCH better. So to compare... You think that the failed HC system will somehow work better when the Govt takes over even though we know from AMTRAK that is not the case? So you don't have answers to simple questions, but will not listen to data unless you have vetted it? Ok, here is the cite, Cheryl L. Reed, “VA chief orders inspector to probe disability rating system,” Chicago Sun-Times, 11 December 2004 Now, quit dodging and discuss the TOPIC since I have provided the source. It does not matter the SCALE the current system is running a deficit, you think a LARGER system will not? It is pretty clear you don't care one bit about the economics problems and just want free HC. You have avoided giving any answers that discuss economics and just keep spouting how you want free. Again, how about you answer the questions about the programs? This pretty much says all you want is a check: "* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * " Now care to discuss the issues or are you just going to continue to avoid them and demand free stuff? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

For more than one reason, yes. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Pretty much nothing PHYSICALLY stops a person from shipping whatever they want. I can't go into too much detail, but most people get caught due to the paperwork. Using a stolen CC, paying cash a little too often to ship the same thing to the same address, shipping say from Al's Guns to individuals a little too often. At times a package does get damaged and has to be re-wrapped. Drug dealers LOVE FedEx.... Till something happens and then they threaten to shoot up the place. Domestically, not unless they suspect something. International has an entirely different set of rules. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And people don't want to pay taxes either and 50% of the US does not pay taxes now. Unless you plan on making EVERYONE to include illegals pay taxes.... They are still going to be getting services and not paying for them. Yes, so your solution is to create a Govt agency when in the past Govt agencies have proven to NOT run well? They do not compete with the USPS. For example UPS and FedEx are not allowed to deliver to Post Office Boxes by LAW. And by LAW UPS and FedEx are not allowed to deliver non urgent letters. The relevant laws are called Private Express Statutes. So in this case to be comparable, Private HC providers would not be allowed to say, give physicals or immunizations. Also the Post Office *IS* in the US Constitution: Article I, section 8, Clause 7 Care to compare the level of education between those and the average public school? PLUS, in your examples the public entities can tap into the deficit and private company's cannot. Care to discuss AMTRAK? Started with 40B in 1970. 1981 1.25B in Govt funds. 1986 was a good year and we only had to put in 608M 1995 it was almost bankrupt and 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, a 2001 it ate up 5.2B in tax dollars. 2004-2005 it ate another 1.2B 2006 it took another 1.4B The "Rail Safety Improvement Act of 2008" now gives AMTRAK 2.6B a YEAR till 2013. All the while it has been cutting services. That the kind of HC program you want? Lets talk about the VA system: 2009 the HC budget was $38.7B and that was to cover only 5.5M people who used the services. 38.7B for 5.5M people.... With over 300M people in the US how much do you think THAT would cost? http://www1.va.gov/opa/fact/vafacts.asp Medicare a good example?: Its running even worse than Social Security.... In 2004 it started paying out more than it took in in taxes... Now anyone with ANY business sense knows you can't pay more out than you take in. Social Security a good example? And it is not running well by any standard. It is the largest program and it only covers 47M out of the 307M you propose should be covered. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I think they should be required in ANY program. You would not believe the story's I have from my US Constitution classes! One person told me the Govt was going to take away the black persons right to vote, a few people heard this as well.... I asked if they knew the process it would take, they didn't so the class talked about it.... They STILL thought it was going to happen anyway. But still it boils down to if you think a school should just focus on academics, or develop a person in many ways. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I take it you are anti-Abortion then? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Legally you can ship ANYTHING but the registered part.... Which is the receiver in most cases. So I could take apart say a Glock and ship you everything but the frame.... I could take everything out of the frame to include the trigger pack. The only thing I can't ship is the frame itself. You also need to check your State laws since in some states you can ship INSIDE the State. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Then maybe YOU should be the one to start? Wrong.... Again, you seem to not not a bunch about something you have strong opinions on. *IF* your income is above a threshold they ask that you pay a co-pay. And I am not a selfish American either. But, I see the proposed "fixes" causing more harm than they "fix". Going blindly into debt with no hope of the program being self sufficient is putting yet another another nail in the coffin so to speak. You have not touched on the subject of the French system adding to the deficit for 20+ years and the French adding co-pays, cutting services, closing facilities...ect. This shows lack of fiscal sense. This is like the poor guy thinking it is OK to run up a credit card because he can get the new toys he wants now. This is not a healthy method for a person nor a Country. You only seem to dislike the deficit when it helps you to waive it in front of people.... Yet you ignore it when you realize it will hurt your position. Why? So you are unwilling to help the people it will help, unless you have your way first? And I want LESS involvement in people's lives by the Govt. I want a smaller Govt, I want a Govt that runs a balanced budget so it will remain strong and not indebted to other Country's. The liberals will never go for that either... and you know it. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I do, I guess you live for it. I have been on several 100 ways... I don't see how your rant is applies unless those people who went low said they would not go low because they were told it was wrong to do and then did go low just for kicks. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And nothing for calling people On here infantile? Nothing about one poster telling another to FUCK OFF 3 times till someone called you out on doing nothing? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

This is you taking the high road? Looks like your same old crap to me. And BTW, you are qualified for VA HC.... You seem to have strong opinions about things you don't seem to know anything about. Also, I think the fact you are unwilling to donate blood... Something that costs you nothing and only takes a few minutes to do, but expect others to pay more in taxes to support your HC demands is AMAZING. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And here you come and try to act like God. Funny thing is you are doing the exact same thing you claim others of..... Hypocrisy at it's best. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Bravo.... We agree on something. The single payer system has plenty of failures.... One being that the Govt fails at pretty much everything they try to run. The second being that the solution to a badly run system is often just adding more expense to the taxpayer. Being that only about 50% of Americans currently pay any Federal tax... Are you planning on taxing the other 50% or just taxing the 1st 50% more? Cause that's not really single payer if only half actually pay. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

No, being a guy with multiple Advanced degrees in Engineering makes him an expert. Him being HIRED to investigate as an engineer on these types of situations for 20+ years makes him an expert. So you want me to listen to you... A guy that can't back up his position when questioned rather than listen to an Uncle that has advanced engineering degrees and 20+ years experience in accident investigation? REALLY!?!?!?!?!? That would be like listening to a whuffo and ignoring Airspeed on how to do a block. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Not in a polite society. And here you are showing the liberal left is EXACTLY the same. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Sure, how about Tort reform which currently is not in any bill being proposed? Right now the avg ins bill for a Dr. is about 55k. How about online medical records to reduce expenses? How about the Govt offer tax incentives to employers that offer HC as part of employment? How about we allow groups to band together to form a group? The USPA could start a program for skydivers. The NASCAR crowd could for a group for rednecks...ect. Might want to look into the Baucus bill. It imposes FEES on company's that don't provide HC to it's employees. So IT thinks it is the responsibility of the employer. Betcha didn't know that..... The bill REQUIRES employers to pay. And So they HAVE to provide it under the Baucus bill. Betcha didn't know that either. Getting rid of unions would also go a long way.... Govt ownership of corporations would also go a long way. Do you also propose to privatize company's? At what point do you personally draw the line? Did you also know that the Baucus bill offers CREDIT to families that make 66,000.00 dollars a year? Did you know that the Baucus bill offers credits to company's that only have 20 EE's making less than 40k and full credit to company's with less than 10 that make less than 20k a year? So if you had a small company and had 10 employees.... Would you hire that 11th if it added a bunch more taxes to you? Did you know that under the Baucus bill medical company's would have to pay a "fee" to be in the US? How exactly is raising costs going to CUT prices.... That would be like Zhills paying more for gas and expecting the jump ticket prices to DROP. Did you know the Baucus plan has any amount your employer pays for your HC will now show up on YOUR W2? Why do you think they want it on YOUR W2? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Hell of an error don't ya think You have my agreement on the fact I think we should cut ALL unnecessary spending... to include some of the budget for the Military. We have to get spending under control. What you do not have my agreement on is that we should start yet another Govt program that is going to be a drain on the taxpayer. I take it then that you agree with me that France's system IS a drain? Is it that you just don't care about the cost? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

That would be 45 BILLION deficit. 9B X 5 times more people = 45B, not 45M Check your math. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Clearly, my "googlefu" is greater than yours: From NPR: Huh, runs a deficit and they have been jacking up fees to try and contain it, but without success. And companies are claiming the high taxes limit how many people they hire. WSJ: THIS year it will be 13.5B in the red..... that does not sound like a positive thing to me we could learn something from. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

No, actually YOU did in your reply to ME... See post #114 from you: "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Lame emotional response. I never claimed to be a hero and I never claimed you to be less of anything... Can you prove otherwise? More lame emotional crap.... Can you debate the topic without this kinda BS? And you do know you were JUST debating me about landmines right? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Good question... That's only if you feel this is a dilution of the PH... I don't. If it is found his motivation was to support terrorism... then they should get the PH IMO. If it was just some nutter wanting to kill.. then no. Her unit can award her anything they wish, but since she was not US forces then the PH would not apply. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334