Ron

I have, read my replied to you in just this thread... Each one I correct an obvious mistake in your knowledge of firearms or firearms laws. That's a 100% ratio. I understand that BOTH are illegal. And it is pretty clear I know more about guns and gun laws than you. Guns are banned in Mexico, yet they have an insane amount of gun violence (And you do know that most of the weapons are NOT coming from the US right?). Hey, you know that drugs are illegal in the US right? Well, then how does the US have a drug problem? I mean if banning something makes it difficult to get and all, how can almost anyone on a DZ find drugs if they just ask? The point is that they broke several laws, and those laws didn't stop them one little bit. 1. They were too young to own firearms. 2. They used a straw purchase. 3. They modified those guns in violation of the NFA of 1934. 4. They took those guns onto school property. 5. They built explosives in violation of Federal Law. 6. They killed people. Rules and laws don't matter to criminals. Gun bans don't stop a criminal. This shows how little you know about explosives. And their problem was with the detonation device, not the explosive. But hey, you know that explosives are illegal right, yet they still had them.... So much for your "ban". I know exactly what it means, I have read the report... Have you? There are PLENTY of examples where people WERE stopped by civilians.... Joel Myrick in Peal, MS for example... So you do know that "Other means" CAN and DOES include civilian intervention right? And I can clearly see you are willing to ignore the nose on your face as long as you get to continue your ignorance position about weapons and weapon laws. No matter how many times I have proven you wrong, you just claim to your line about how "I would not mind lying"... Never mind I have shown data and facts to back up my positions each and every time... You have just brought your uneducated opinions. You need to do better than just ignorant opinions. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Clearly you are not. We have discussed this many times, yet you still think we just hand out guns like Halloween candy. My living or not living in Europe has ZERO relevance to US gun laws and US social knowledge. You do notice that I don't spend a great deal of my time with German society? This is 100% opposite of you. I only bring up German gun crimes in relation to you trying to claim Germany does not have any. If you supplied wrong information, YOU committed a felony. That is already against the law. Your posts do not support that statement. Who do you think knows more about firearms... those that handle them daily or those that have them locked up hundreds of miles away and only shoots them a few times per year? I have no issue with that.... I DO have an issue when you try to act like the choices WE make are wrong. I don't care if someone NEVER shoots a gun. But they do not have the right to say I can't own one and shoot it. I don't think anyone that does not want to have one should be forced to have one. However you want to prevent others from owning something you personally don't like. Which is the more evolved position? Allowing people to choose, or forcing your views on them? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You would actually have to start reading what I write to know what I have said.... Either that, or your reading comprehension needs work. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you just ignore and pretend. Nope, I have said it was STUPID and did nothing to prevent crime since many of the items that defined an "assault" weapon were cosmetic or stupid. The 94 AWB banned: The stock and grip do NOTHING to change how dangerous the weapon is. When was the last time you heard of a mass stabbing with fixed bayonets? Flash suppressors don't make the weapon more dangerous... people who have shot both know that the difference really only matters on Full Auto, and that is slight at best. Grenade Launchers..... Really!!!!!! When was the last time you saw a gangbanger launching grenades? They are already illegal. Plus the dumbest thing of all.... you cold have TWO of the items and be fine. So yeah, it was an indescribably stupid law that studies have shown did NOTHING to reduce crime. That is a different track than your claims of immaturity and desire being dumb. But you are not willing to admit that you actually don't know something, so you will continue to make up things that were never said, dodge answering simple questions, and jump to unsupported conclusions like you always do. Really.... For some odd reason you are incapable of logic when it comes to politics. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Then why did *I* have to buy it? You just can't admit your analogy is faulty, and thats just funny. You can't admit that THERE ARE LAWS that give the USPS a monopoly and how that does not allow the USPS as a good comparison to HC. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Dude... you clearly don't bother to read what I actually write... Preferring to make up things I never said. I already said that Senator Feinstein ADMITTED to using the pictures in a catalog to ban specific weapons and that Pro gun people latched on to that to make fun of people like you. Then you took off on a tear saying that anyone that wanted a "scary" looking rifle was immature. I said that most people that want those types of weapons are for functionality. So you took A, ignored B, and came up with Z. Pretty normal for you, but still pathetic. And yet you do it so much more often than we could learn a thing or two about making up stuff from you.... You truly are the BullS*it master. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And reading your posts show that you have relly no idea what American life is like.... I am reminded of some work I did with some European SF guys. After a week of training we started talking and one of the first questions I was asked was, "Where is all the gunfire?" It seems they (and clearly you) think the US has gun fights all the time. They were smart enough to listen to the truth and ask questions... you just continue to throw BS accusations. This shows you have not listened one bit at all. We have background checks to just BUY a gun in a store, and to carry we have to go through ANOTHER background check, fingerprints...ect. AND WE HAVE DISCUSSED THIS BEFORE. So it is clear you are NOT willing to listen. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

It is not semantics. You just know you can't defend your position so you are trying to claim it is.... thats fine, you can run away and claim victory if you must. But it does not change the facts at all. Never claimed it was great one. But I do see that you can't answer my questions without BS, so you distort and avoid. Like I asked before I can drive my car on any public road in all 50 States and DC. Name one type of gun I can carry in public areas in all 50 States and DC. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And these cops are the same people who others say we should trust to protect us in all circumstances. This guy was an idiot. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Big difference between a license check and a criminal background check. You know it, you just do not want to admit it. And that AGAIN is a big difference. You can use the car on private land, yet with BANS you can't even own the item. I can drive my car on any public road in all 50 States and DC. Name one type of gun I can carry in public areas in all 50 States and DC. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Did you buy your mailbox, or did the PO buy and install it for you? Do you pay rent on the PO box, or does the Govt give it to you for free? You are (intentionally) missing the point. The PO has a monopoly by LAW that gives them certain advantages. And that these advantages are being left out of the USPS/FedEx Vs. private/public HC comparison. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

The proof that you and a few others no nothing about firearms and firearms laws is right there for everyone to read.... you know how YOU said, "Hard to see how the Texas Tower killer in 1966 would have been stopped by a CCW hero" But there were SEVERAL civilians credited with helping out in that case... Which I provided evidence to back up my position and you brought NOTHING but uneducated opinion? You don't see me tell you that you are wrong on Physics issues... I am amazed you think you know EVERYTHING about EVERYTHING. And the facts show you really don't know what you are talking about when it comes to guns..... Sorry, but that is just the facts. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Show me where.... Or stop acting like the 5 year old in the NO stage. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yes, and those people have already stated they used that term to tick off your ilk.... Links available on request . Here is one just for fun: http://www.spectacle.org/0304/assault.html Also, Feinstein was on record saying how she came up with the weapons that she wanted to ban by name was by flipping through a gun catalog and banning the ones that "looked" the same. This is where the phrase came from. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Thats not a background check. That is a license check. And you even stated you CAN buy and take the car... You just can't drive it home. That would be comparable to me being able to buy a gun, but not slip it in my holster for the way home... I'd have to carry it in the case. Name the type of gun that can be taken everywhere. Cause I don't know the type of gun I can carry in DC, Chicago, or LA legally with my FL permit. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You don't need a background check to buy a car from a dealer, but you do need a background check to buy a gun from a dealer. No one is trying to make it so you HAVE to buy a used car from a dealer.... Yet people are trying to make it so you have to go through an FFL to buy any gun. You do need a license to drive it on public streets, and you need a license to carry on public streets. There are no bans on TYPES of cars... you want a Corvette, you can buy one, and they can still be made. You can't buy a 50 cal in CA, and you can't own a MG in IL. I can drive my car in ANY of the 50 States to include DC. Yet I can't carry in all of them. Your comparisons are getting worse. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

There is a big difference between independent civilian and quasi-governmental. Also the USPO is a legal monopoly. Try sending a UPS or FedEx package to a post office box or telling the driver to put it into your mailbox. And you should read up on the Private Express Statutes (or PES) are a group of United States federal civil and criminal laws placing various restrictions on the carriage and delivery of letters by all organizations other than the United States Postal Service. So for HC to be compared correctly, then you could ONLY get certain treatments (the most popular and common types) at Govt run centers, using Govt paid Dr's. And to get those same treatments somewhere else would be a federal crime. Really.... quit trying to compare the USPO and UPS/FedEx to private and public HC..... It does not compare due to the legal monopoly the USPS has. (unless you want that same monopoly in HC) "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Regrettably, criminals don't normally follow the law. Nonsense.... this just tells me you have no clue about our laws. And if US citizens could "mutate in mass killers" so could your German buddies.... In fact, it seems they have in several occasions... to include genocide. It matters if they are illegal or not.... you may not be able to tell the difference due to your pre-held hatred.... But there is a big difference. Also, you have gun crime: Yet the annual number of firearm-related murders in Germany rose 76% between 1992-1995. (Library of Congress, p. 69.) And you have your very own school shootings: March 11th 2009 – Dressed in black combat gear Tim Kretschmer killed 9 students and three teachers at Albertville Secondary School, Winnenden, 12 miles north of Stuttgart. He fled the scene, shooting dead a gardener in a nearby psychiatric clinic before hijacking a car. After abandoning the vehicle and its driver, he fled on foot, fatally shooting a salesman and customer at a car showroom before police arrived. Two police officers and Kretschmer were wounded in the ensuing gunfight before he killed himself. Nov, 2006 Geschwister Scholl School in Emsdetten by Sebastian Bosse injured 8 April 26, 2002: Robert Steinhaeuser, 19, who had been expelled from school in Erfurt, Germany, killed 13 teachers, two former classmates and a police officer, before committing suicide. In fact.... looking at the history of school shootings in Germany you seem to have a bunch to include things like the Cologne school massacre where the guy used a flamethrower. So maybe you should step off your high horse. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Your ignorance is showing. For Pro gunners, it is not how they look, it is a matter of functionality. For Anti's it is "scary looking" issues based on fear. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

That's because they couldn't FIND them. The POLICE couldn't find them for almost 2 mths. (first killing was 9/5/02 and they were arrested 10/24/02) You need to read the data again. Civilians DID help: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Whitman Your data is flat wrong. He would have escaped, not gotten away. Two very different things. Also, you know for a fact he would have had a CCW permit? The very fact he was anti-federal would make it seem LESS likely for him to get the permit. You are making assumptions that have no basis in reality. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Sure it is... We are discussing the Corvette. And Johns opinion is that people who want a Corvette are more dangerous than those that want a Focus... And he tried to apply that to certain types of guns. But as proof, he tried to use the insurance of a Corvette on only ONE age group while ignoring all the other age groups and use ALL age groups in the gun example. For it to be equitable you would have to compare all age groups with a Corvette, or only one age group with the gun. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Really.... Get more information. You are again, 100% wrong. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You REALLY need to do more reading. Almost EVERYTHING you say about guns is 100% wrong. They obtained BOTH guns and explosives illegally. You do know that both Harris and Klebold were both not old enough to buy the guns they used right? In addition they modified the weapons in ways that violated the 1934 National Firearms Act. Further they built almost 100 explosive devises. And you know that it is ILLEGAL to make explosives, right? And since you brought up Columbine... you do know that the United States Secret Service and the Department of Education released a report in May 2002 called THE FINAL REPORT AND FINDINGS OF THE SAFE SCHOOL INITIATIVE: IMPLICATIONS FOR THE PREVENTION OF SCHOOL ATTACKS IN THE UNITED STATES? Key point is on page 12: "Despite prompt law enforcement responses, most shooting incidents were stopped by means other than law enforcement intervention." http://www.treas.gov/usss/ntac/ssi_final_report.pdf Really, almost 100% of your information about firearms and the laws regarding them is wrong. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I think you are confusing two different items. I can order a parts kit for a SEMI automatic weapon and make it. But I am not allowed to order the parts that would make it AUTOMATIC without a BUNCH of jumping through hoops. To make a SEMI gun, I just need to be in a state that allows it. To make a FULL AUTO gun I'd have to be a class 7 SOT, or buy parts that were registered prior to 1986. If I bought the pre-86 parts, I would have to pay a 200 dollar tax, get an LEO signature, fingerprints, passport photo, and go through an FBI background check. Possession of unregistered full auto parts is a felony with a 10 year and 250k fine. So no, you can't just build a full auto gun... you can build a legal semi auto gun... But with a semi auto gun running less than 1k, it is not worth it unless you just like to build stuff. It is like yes, it is perfectly legal for you to build a parachute, but it is much easier to just buy one. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Not relevant at all. One is a PRIVATE company that cannot BAN ownership of an object. The other is a STATE that is looking to ban ownership of an object that is covered under the 2nd Amendment. You might want to CHECK THE TOPIC BEING DISCUSSED. You do know it is called, " Ban military-style semi-auto firearms?"Right? Again, you might want to check the rates for a guy in his 30's. And maybe check your own rates. They govern the object based on age. The poll is about an outright ban and that is another area where your logic is faulty. Yes, but your opinion is clearly based in ignorance and fear of an object. Again your logic is incorrect based on: 1. An irrational emotional fear of an object. 2. Ignorance of the object being discussed. 3. Incorrect comparison between a private FOR PROFIT company and a State. 4. Incorrect assumption of the private company having a BAN. The errors in your logic are printed for everyone to see Doc. Have a nice holiday, hope the wife feels better and if you make it down to FLL you can always stay at my place on the beach... Hell, I'll loan you a car. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Well, you would have to ask the guy that ran away when the gun was pulled on him.... I can't speak for him. I didn't make it about the gun... I made it about PEOPLE carrying a gun. And it is clear that in this case (per the police, and the victim) it saved a life. How the gun owner saved a life is obviously clear. If you want what ELSE might have worked... you will have to talk to the attacker that ran off. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334