Ron

Good questions. I have seen them kill people. I have seen them break people. I was actually planning on dumping the reserve into the main, but my thought was that they will entangle and choke each other out. Maybe, but my thought was that a fast spinning main would have causes the reserve to 'barber pole' around the main and both would choke each other out. Yes, I forgot to mention that. I had a bad habit of putting my cutaway and reserve smack up against the housings. With the glove, I could not feel very well, and that's what started me cussing out the glove. Doubt it. While I felt pretty altitude aware, this did personally teach me how people can get wrapped up trying to fix a problem instead of stopping the skydive. Me too. I should state that this was without an RSL. And again, I had every intention of just pulling the reserve, just not till later in the fear that they would entangle. This is a damn good discussion. Just like I posted a bit up thread, I am not sure I would do this again and I do not want others to think it was a good idea to try an fix a problem past the hard deck. I had to think about if I was even going to post it since I don't want to put that idea into someones head. But I have mentioned this incident a few times and people have asked to see it. But this could have easily killed me. I could have messed with it for so long that I chopped and hit the ground. I could have dumped the reserve and been fine, or it could have resulted in a double. I guess I posted it for two reasons... It was a pretty wild ride and people like seeing thouse, and hopefully so people will never give up and fight till blood fills their goggles. But yeah, not the best choices even if they worked out. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You can sink a small canopy *almost exactly like you can sink a classic accuracy canopy (I would not want to let it really stall). 1. Don't stall it. 2. The whole idea of cross braces is to make a more rigid wing. You can (and I have) do a "classic" approach under a small Xbraced canopy. I have done it under 88, 90, 96's. Slow speed flight is something most people with Xbraced canopies only use for the end of a swoop... That does not mean it can't do other things. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Do you know the Pax knew the additional risks? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Except, I asked YOU a follow up question since you answered that one so well. I asked YOU since you have compiled data and started a thread about the incidents. I asked YOU since you seem to think HC are dangerous for Tandems. And you are a big boy. Admit you are unable to defend your position, or just unwilling to answer a simple question for personal reasons..... I mean you created a post that documents all the incidents, so you kinda started acting as the SME on the topic. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Read the question again, you didn't pay attention: No one has shown me a single Tandem *fatality* due to a HC (I have not even seen evidence of an accident, just TI's doing the same stupid thing that TI's have done before HC's). If you would like, please be the first to provide the details of a fatality, or even an accident. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Ok then to you: How many fatalities have been caused by a handicam? How many have been caused by an outside video flyer? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Don't know... I shared my data, please share yours. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Someone PM'ed me.... How many fatalities have been caused by a handicam? How many have been caused by an outside video flyer? I know the answers..... Zero have been killed by a HC. There have been two fatalities directly due to an OV guy. 1. Maricopa, AZ - 26 Dec 1998 2. Skydive Wayne Co, Richmond IN - 02 July 2005 "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

?!?!?!?!??!!?!? ?!?!?!?!?!? Hundreds of thousands of Tandems have been done with NO video guy. Those folks got the experience of the "moment" Lets not forget that many OV people are more busy doing what THEY want than giving the student a package they will remember. http://www.dropzone.com/forum/Skydiving_Disciplines_C3/Photography_and_Video_F7/Tandem_Video_Exits_-_inspiration_wanted_!_P1581742 "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Fury still has a great shot, IMO. Todd speaks a little wierd, but has great skills. I was his piece partner in 07 and he is no slouch. Airspeed has had so many people through the team that they have done all airspeed 16way. Fury also has created a legacy, again IMO. One if the reasons I like the GK and Aispeed so much is they stick around after player changes and still kick ass. Fury can now do that. I have always thought that a great team is one that can change people and still do well. It used to be very rare now thankfully it seems to happen more and more. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Really just the one problem repeated several times. I am not making an excuse, if I were the S&TA at the DZ, or a rep for the tandem company.... I'd ground the jumper the second I found out about it. But, my point is that TI doing stupid things is not really new. Heck TI's not pulling the reserve has happened without the HC. But I have not seen any incidents that the HC *caused* (such as an entanglement). I am all for some basic requirements before any jumper can jump a HC. Just like I am for requirements to jump a WS, or a high WL. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

He might have been stowing his slider to cut down on drag "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Problems like? I have only heard of the one case. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Not really, the TI that thinks videoing his own cutaway instead of pulling the reserve is a good idea will find some other thing to do incorrectly.... Like maybe letting the OV guy stand on his back, or doing some freeflying with the tandem, or maybe doing "T's" with his legs on the side of the tandem. All of these things could be fixed by fixing the attitude of the instructor and only one would be fixed by banning HC. Bill do you have a tandem rating? How many jumps on a tandem? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

We used to joke about the "Airspeed shakedown" effect every year. The theory goes to explain why it is impossible to build a team right after the Nationals. The top teams have to make their selection(s) before the B level guys will form a team. And the C level guys will not do anything till the B level folks team up. Once the A slots get filled, the B guys all scurry to build a team, once the B teams get filled the C guys scurry to find a team etc till someone has to drag a recent AFF grad into 4way somewhere around Z Once the top teams decide what they are going to do, then it trickles down to every team. So Airpseed is to blame for the NSL rookie classes not building teams till sometime around April Not that it really applies in this case.... Fury and Todd are not exactly "B" anything..... Its just a funny theory we used to joke about and I saw an opening. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/OptimumReserveFlightCharacteristics_v1.PDF The Optimum has a fairly long control range for a reserve parachute, longer than the standard PD reserve, with excellent slow flight characteristics. The stall point is very deep for a reserve, so much so that it *may* be possible to fly at full arm extension for a few seconds prior to getting a stall. Of course, the exact stall point of any canopy depends on the canopy size, riser length and arm length. Recovery from an induced stall is quick and clean. Altitude permitting, it is best to check the control range and stall point of the Optimum prior to landing, because the stall point will probably be very different from that of your main. Stalls and other radical maneuvers should obviously be avoided close to the ground.... Any small canopy will have a high descent rate on final, so flaring must be timed well. Regardless of how great the flare potential is with the Optimum, a hard landing will be the likely result from a poorly timed flare. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

What if the video they saw WAS from a HC only? You are assuming that every student that saw a tandem video saw an OV. I have seen DZ advertise HC video only. http://skydivearuba.com/cgi-bin/p/awtp-menu.cgi?d=air-adventures-aruba-nv&id=1382 http://www.aircapitaldropzone.com/tandemvideo.htm Pure speculation. People IN THIS THREAD have said they know people that PREFERRED the HC. Yes, it is a pure economic issue. But that does not mean it is wrong. You feel strongly about this since it is your job to do OV. Yes, OV provides some shots that HC cannot produce. But HC provides some shots OV cannot produce. In the end the DZO is going to do what is best for his business.... For years that was Tandems with OV. For a while it might be both OV and HC. But at some point, IMO, OV will drop away and the student will not even notice. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I disagree. High WL 7cell F111's have a tendency to enter a dynamic stall when flared too much. The control stroke (at high WL's) is much shorter than modern canopies. This has caused injuries in that past. Dick Klimas from World Team shattered his arm and it was so bad at one point that Skydiving Mag wrote an article discussing the issue. http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/Reserve-Flight-Char-v3.pdf Stall Characteristics: A canopy will stall when the toggles or back risers are pulled down to a certain point called the “stall point.” When a canopy stalls there is a dramatic decrease in lift: the canopy basically stops “flying” and starts to descend very quickly. The stall point of a particular canopy will depend mainly on the size and design of the canopy. A smaller canopy will tend to have a higher stall point, meaning you will not need to pull the toggles down as far to make the canopy stall. Modern zero-porosity main canopies often have a very low stall point. A large zero-p main might not stall even when the toggles are held all the way down, and the stall point of a smaller canopy may still be at a very deep toggle position. A reserve of a similar size will usually have a higher stall point. Fly an > 1:1 loaded 7cell F111 in the brakes needed to do 1:1 glide in a no wind day to landing and you are NOT going to have "energy left for a nice flare and stand-up landing". Now, jump a properly sized F111 7cell (0.7ish WL) and I would agree..... But most people who are jumping tiny mains do not have big reserves. Mine is loaded at 1.54, yours is 1.38 "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I am totally stealing that. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I will add that even though this worked out, and makes a great story .... Lots of people have died messing with trying to fix a problem till impact. I could write a book citing examples. Here is one from a friend Jack Larrison http://www.skydivingfatalities.info/search.asp?MinDate=1%2F1%2F1999&MaxDate=5%2F1%2F1999&Place=Zephyrhills&State=&Country=&Category=&MinAge=16&MaxAge=78&UnknownAge=on&MinJumps=0&MaxJumps=15000&UnknownJumps=on&AAD=&RSL=&Description=&DescriptionOperator=OR&Lessons=&LessonsOperator=OR So, I could have *easily* ended up a fatality report for 1997. So lets look at where I screwed up: 1. I had no idea a handle could fold under after I had done my handles check before climbing out. 2. I blew through the normal hard deck. 3. I attempted to fix a problem with some "new" idea instead of relying on the standard method. Would I have changed anything? I often wonder that.... It is hard to argue with still being able to breathe. But, I have read so many fatality reports where people spend the rest of their lives trying to fix a problem that I often wonder if I did the right thing. AND I don't want anyone to think this is really a valid solution to this type of issue..... Yes, it did work out, but the fatality reports are FILLED with people who thought they could fix a problem and filled with people that fixed it too late to survive. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

It does not change the fact that it could still *malfunction*. Even properly packed and tested mains can mal. And the point is that under stress you are not going to be able to call up all your skill and you are not going to be able to adapt as quickly as you might like. I have had 9 or 10 mals AND have a PRO rating and I can tell you that I can easily land my main wherever I want 99% of the time, but I do not have the same accuracy with my reserve that I have only jumped 7 times (3 were tandem mals). Look at it this way... You have 500 jumps, lets say 200 are on your current main. Lets say you have 1 reserve ride. So you are less than 1% as current on your reserve as your main. Add up the chance of a mal, that you do not have much exp on your reserve, and that you are not going to be as skilled under stress.... and to me it screams bad idea. Sure, but again you are trading a perfectly good main for what is behind handle #2. PLUS, a 7cell F111 does not fly anywhere as nice as a ZP. Back in the day when F111 mains were common the rule of thumb was your 9cell main at 1:1 would be considered an aggressive WL. 7cells were even bigger. My first main was a 7cell F111 and it was 220 sqft and it was the same size and canopy my *instructor* jumped. Most people don't have 200+ sized reserves, so my 113 reserve with no flair is going to land me pretty damn hard. Your 143 is not going to set you down as softly as you think either. Thinking out of the box is good, but in most situations sticking to your main, IMO, is the safer bet. Bill mentioned a possible exception... A night jump in an area you know is bad. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

No. I would never trade a flying canopy for what is behind handle #2. 1. There have been cases of reserve parachute malfunctions. 2. You have more exp flying the main than the reserve. Yes, people have died doing off landings.... But in most of those cases they didn't really modify the approach to landing. Back to the FJC: If you are going to land somewhere bad.... Don't fly there! If you screwed up and are there, then aim at the best thing and fly at half brakes and prepare to PLF. With a dislocated shoulder.... How are you going to pull both handles in a timely manner? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Well it sure seems like Richards is just trying to hit back anyone he feels "wronged" him. There are plenty of areas he could open a winter DZ. He could not get back at TK and Company, so he went after Hallett. I must say I LOVE seeing Bob flying in zhills... cracks me up.

Tandems themselves cause safety problems, outside video is more dangerous than not having video... Etc. There has been at least on fatality where an OV guy killed a tandem pax. Just like most things HC video could be done safely, or it could be done in a dangerous manner. Some guy that just got his tandem rating slapping one on, not doing handle checks, and trying to video his own chop instead of pulling the reserve.... Bad. Some guy with 5k tandems, that does his handle checks and uses both hands during a mal... Not bad. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

That became standard equipment on Javelins...... About a week later "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334