Ron

Heck, I think the camp system is *great*. It gives people who don't live in the bigway areas and who do not know the right people a path to be invited on the big stuff. And bigways have been about making money for about as long as I can remember. I don't have a problem with that either.... I like a free market. Money to fun ratio is why I stopped doing bigways. Looking at the 2011 P3 100 way, it is 860.00 for 18 jumps. 820/18 = 47.77 per jump. Regular jumps are what 22 bucks there? Team rates are normally less. I'd rather make 40 4way jumps than 18 100 ways. But thats just me. That is nothing new in bigways. I once was cut from a bigway because one organizer wanted to put a buddy on that had showed up late. But, the lead LO had invited me and told the other LO that he could not cut me. In the end, I didn't miss a jump and was moved to a late diver and they just added me on a loop. I know all of this because we all joked about it later.... Bigways have always had politics. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

The distinction is lost when you look at the fact that the information was in BSR official announcement making claims like, " TK Hayes has lost the plot", "Zhills has been putting jumpers in imminent danger", and then mentioning that the Ranch Hands will not be going to Zhills "for loyalty reasons". You really trying to claim that it was "only FFE"???? Actually... I have heard from several of them. I was at Zhills last weekend. Only TK has posted, but there are lots of individuals that are involved both working at Zhills and for the City. And as stated, verbal contracts that one side admits they were trying to change. Ever notice that the legal issues brought up by Billy have not been over his "exclusive" rights? They have been over the fuel farm, the hanger, and TK's flying the Cessna being 'dangerous'. The fact is that TK has stated that any Ranch Hand that wants to show up at Zhills is welcome but Billy is trying to get people to avoid Zhills. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And Dan BC does not have to train to beat people that are training like hell in 4way But if I were building a 4 way team, I'd pick up BC before most of the up and commers. Still, none of your response provides any data to back his claim of 'many P3 folks outperforming many of the current record holders' I am still waiting for him to provide that data. I believe personally that he is either getting a little over exuberant, or he is parroting something he was told to him by someone selling him on the camps. Most likely a bit of both. I have no dog in this fight.... I have not done a 100 way in 13 years and even though I have been offered slots... I choose not to go. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Data to back that claim? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

If two exp people want to do this... no problem. But there is very little chance you are going to be able to explain to a FJS the dangers that are added in a way that they will really understand. Add in the preservation of skydiving in an increasingly Govt regulated society and you are starting to see the reasons why many oppose this sort of stunt. Again, two "up jumpers" wanna do this? Get a blessing from the tandem company and have a ball. Edit to add: RE: Doms comment about people falling out of gear. Do you know WHY new materials and methods were created to prevent people from falling out? Because people fell out and died. There were two camps back then as well: 1. Those that thought we should not be taking people without additional measures. 2. Those that thought they were skilled enough and that the knowledge base was sufficient. After a few PAX fell to their deaths the 2nd camp reluctantly agreed with the first camp. So are you saying we should wait till someone dies before making a decision? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I agree... My first jump on a Spectre the damn thing felt like it was diving out of the sky. It also turned faster and lost more altitude in the turn than I expected. Still a good canopy, just not the one I would want doing AFF and sometimes getting a less than ideal spot. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You will notice three things is you get into the sport and stay in the sport. 1. You will meet a ton of people. 2. It is really a small sport, USPA says ~34,000 members, but the active jumpers are fewer. 3. Everyone knows, or claims to know, someone who died. I say "claims to know" since some people like to jump on any bandwagon they can find. I once had a guy start to tell me a story of a guy going in "that he watched".... Only to remind him that *I* told him that story and he was trying to tell *me* what *I* saw, and the incident happened before he was even jumping. But even if you remove the posers, this is such a small community that you will meet tons of people and on some level "know" them... You may not have ever talked to them off of a DZ, but you did know them. Add in the internet, and you will hear of any accident in a few hours... And have details that used to take years to filter around. So say I bounce.... Several people that have only ever read my postings will claim to have "known" me... In some ways they really do, but in others they only know my postings. And skydiving is not safe.... no matter what anyone tells you. The risk can be controlled to what most people consider and acceptable level and they may call it "safe". But you are jumping from a plane in flight and the you and your gear must perform or you will die. To me and many others, the risk is worth the reward. Look at the fatality rate. Lets say that we average 22.4 fatalities a year (USPA). And taking into account the membership during those years - it is about 30k. Then one out of every ~1330 USPA members die each year. But remember that not all of those 30k members are actively jumping AND many students do a few jumps and NEVER join the USPA. Personally I WAG estimate it at about 1/1000 jumpers will die. But that does not take into account the number of jumps made, OR the reason for the fatality. In this sport, that is a good thing to have. You can take some solace in the fact that most accidents are due to user error. Being conservative in your progression, conservative in gear selection, and conservative in deciding what type of jumps to do can greatly increase your chances of not getting hurt. But only you can decide if the risk is worth it. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yeah, but the stabee was Randy..... So it was hard to pick a side on that one...... Kidding, Randy stepped up and earned some respect from me that day "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

While you should get a license... It could be that the DZ you are at does not care since you are jumping enough to stay current. There is very little reason to get a license other than it takes longer to be required to make a recurrency jump (not an issue if you are jumping a lot) and when you go to a new DZ they assume you have a certain level of proficiency. I went all the way from first jump to 'C' license... Skipped A and B. But since the 'A' is now free... There is little reason to skip it. As for gear.... Depends on the DZ you are at. If the DZ does not charge you to borrow an alti, helmet, jumpsuit...etc. Then save up and buy a rig. If they charge for all of it... I'd get a jumpsuit first since it is a personal fit item. Posting where you are can help others help you.... For example if you were near me, I could offer to do your eval dive for just the cost of your jump. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yes, I have bought and sold jumpsuits in the last year. Tonys are quite expensive as well. Call Michigan and Bev they have suits for less than 500 dollars.... Others do as well. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I think spending 700 dollars on a jumpsuit when the 200 dollar jumpsuit works EXACTLY as well is a 500 dollar waste. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Get an RW suit. Don't even pay close to 700 bucks.... that's insane. Get a good RW suit that fits you. It is easier to find a FF suit off the shelf (or jump in sweatpants and a shirt). Plus since you are not jumping much... It might be better to focus on RW instead of FF since FF is more difficult. And "I don't want to piss off the people I jump with (most of whom are old-school RW'ers) and not have a practical suit" This all leads me to think that you should stick with RW and get an RW suit. One suit fits all = one suit fits nothing. Yes, it can be used, but it is far from optimal. RW has booties, grippers and fits snug. FF is normally a looser fit, no booties, no grippers. You can use a wrench as a hammer, but a hammer works better. Too expensive IMO. My teammate had one and loved it, another had one and didn't. But for 700 bucks you could have 2-3 of the other makers. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

For starters... I am not a wing suit I (or coach, or whatever). But, I would have less of an issue with a guy with 1k camera jumps wearing one when trying something new. That does not mean I think it is a *good* idea. Just not dangerous. Time after time it has been shown that focusing on the task at hand provides a better learning experience. This is why we don't let FJC students surf the internet while in the FJC. They might be experts at surfing the net, but they should be paying more attention to the life and death lessons they are being taught. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Ah, except that many (incorrectly) think a higher rating qualifies you for a lower rating when it comes to the FAA. And in many Countries it is true. Nowhere is driving on an expired license OK. It is clearly not the same. Really?!?!?!?!? "No longer" means you did at one time. You are telling him to not find out, and not to mention it. That is exactly 'advocating lying by omission'. OK, all I did was disagree with your analogy. You seem more than willing to pass judgment here. Give an example of how a properly rated twin commercial pilot is unsafe flying a single engine airplane that he is current on? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Not really, you said it was "it is similiar to driving with an expired license." It actually is not similar. You are correct that it shows ignorance of the regulation, but again people know you are not supposed to drive on an expired license. So it is not similar there either. In any case, TK admitted the mistake and was reprimanded by the FAA. It was dumb, but not "unsafe" unless you are trying to claim that a guy qualified to fly a twin is somehow not safe flying a single. And I will not defend him not following the FAR's.... I just pointed out your analogy was wrong on many levels. I hope you disclosed during your medical to the FAA that you have used drugs in the past. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3992966;#3992966 and I guess your following the FAR's does not count when no one see's it: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3640867;#3640867 "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I am with you. It seems that the new crowd seems to not see the big deal. I was listening to NPR the other day and they had a Dr. Adam Gazzaley (SP?). The gist of the interview is that through brain scanning technology that is has been proven that we do not work well with multiple streams of information. Found the link: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=127771658 And we see that usually what happens when you demand great degrees of quality or of care, as opposed to something that's automatic like chewing gum and walking, when you demand this, what happens as opposed to actually doing two things at the same time, it seems that you switch between these things. And with each switch, there's a cost, a cost in performance that occurs. This supports the idea that one thing should be *automatic* before an additional task is applied. In this case, jumping a camera before the basic WS skill is there. So yeah... I'd ban any students from jumping a camera while I was coaching them. Too many times I have seen the camera become a distraction from the main focus of the lesson. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

So if you didn't know this was a bad idea it would be fine for me to talk you into it? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HZ-AW3Jmzc (BTW that is really a fake) "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Not really.... It is more like the guy qualified to drive the 18 wheeler hopping into a car and taking a package out for delivery. The DOT considers a guy qualified to drive an 18 wheeler (Class A) to be qualified to drive a van (Class C). The FAA does not consider a guy qualified to fly a 747 full of pax as qualified to fly a Piper Cub for hire. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

No one is shooting him down for not having a contract. We are saying that without a contract he cannot force an issue that he only *thinks* exists. Fine, TK fired Freefall Express. Billy still *thinks* that he (as owner of Freefall Express) has a right to be the sole provider of aircraft for SDC.... Even though there is no contract that states that. The legal proceedings have proven that to be false. Facts to back that claim up? The judges seem to disagree. He may be missing the income from the FFE part, but TK and the other owners have the right to find a better deal to do what is best for the DZ. Did Billy try to start a DZ on Zhills as revenge? Did he then try to start a DZ in DeLand as revenge? Did he bring a lawsuit against TK's aircraft business? You ever wonder why that is? It is actions like these. Because they like him since he treats them well. Not a hard concept t grasp. Ever wonder why the Zhills folks are defending TK? Same reasons. Now... As a former Zhills person I can easily state that Billy made it quite clear that Zhills was not his priority. I can remember at least TWICE where I saw the Otter fly off on a weekend to fly somewhere and leaving Zhills with NO aircraft whatsoever. Here are the FACTS: * Billy thought he had an exclusive agreement with SDC for FFE to be the sole aircraft provider. * This "Agreement" was not in writing. * On several occasions FFE left Zhills with ZERO aircraft. * FFE tried to renegotiate the "contract" and SDC decided to go with another vendor. So: 1. There is no contract 2. FFE leaving Zhills without aircraft on more than one occasion would have put them in violation of an exclusive use contract. 3. Renegotiating the 'contract' would have invalidated the original 'contract'. I personally like Billy.... but I made it a point to NEVER enter into business with him. TK and I argue all day long on just about every issue.... Don't believe me? Ask him. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Its not fun and I have enough jumps that I don't want to be miserable just to add a number to a logbook. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Hard to follow your post... Are you trying to say "truth"???? You mean things like how Billy thought he had the ability to dictate policy and hold the planes over the DZ's head? And how without a contract he thinks he should still get his way? Blame Billy for not having a contract. Blame Billy for getting pissed and trying to create problems... both in Zhills and in DeLand. Blame TK for flying a plane without the correct license. Why is it none of the legal issues seem to be falling in Billy's favor? The most logical answer is his position is not as strong as he thinks. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Here is the thing I find funny. You have said before that your country requires 1000k jumps to be a TI and that you think that is better than the US's 500.... That 1000k is better than 500.But you take the 100% opposite view when it comes to video.... That your country has it right again and the US is wrong again. Why is 1000 better than 500, but 200 not better than 100???? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

A good idea. I have always thought proper education can allow a much faster progression. It would if course depend on the course... AND for it to be a course that held a standard.... But yeah, some guy takes a class from some skilled camera guy that is also a teacher and with good materials and a held standard... I think it would be a good idea. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

There are two generally accepted methods, not exactly 'many'. Please read my post again and you will see that there is ARCH in there... Just not where you had it. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I was joking at the DZ that I should be allowed to speed driving to the DZ since I have a "Master" skydiving license. One of the group called BS and said that the "D" license was "Expert" not "Master" (It was a joke anyway...But whatev). So I found my log book and produced a "Master" license. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334