Ron

Nonsense, you are claiming that the SIM and everyone that does not agree with your views is not correct. How is that you not seeing others as wrong? And who told you your procedure to remove your helmet before cutting away a mal was the correct method? And don't you think a person who has made mistakes is better able to identify them? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

The SIM, most jumpers with tons more EXP than you all are telling you that a camera is a distraction and that the distraction will sneak up on you.... What makes you think THEY are all wrong, and you are correct? Ever had a close call yet? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

How would this be different than making the jumper run to the target to start the course? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

It would help for you to give more info.... Such as your name so people can look at your past performance. What DZ are you planning on using? These things can help people decide. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And stress in a given situation is also a psychological issue. A person with more experience and more knowledge normally handles stress better than a person with less experience and knowledge. Lets not forget that you 'imagined' an emergency procedure for dealing with a camera helmet that NO ONE ever suggested.... Unless you can show me where someone told you to unclip your helmet before you cutaway from a spinning mal....... Really???? What does the SIM say about number of jumps before jumping a camera.... and how many jumps did you have before you started jumping a camera? To be fair, I have over 5k jumps. To put that into perspective, I have 18.8 times the skydiving exp that you do. When I jump a test rig, test main... Etc, I think about them a BUNCH. When I jump a new main, I think about it a BUNCH. If I were going to do an intentional cutaway, I'd think about the reserve a BUNCH. But, ask me about how often I think about a camera when I make a camera jump?..... I have maybe 200 camera jumps in those 5k jumps. I almost bounced when I had 200-300 jumps jumping a camera. Great altitude awareness!!!!!! And since I want them checking every 3-5 seconds they are close to perfect. But that they still need to do the dive flow. Now, let me ask you a question. The SIM, most jumpers with tons more EXP than you all are telling you that a camera is a distraction and that the distraction will sneak up on you.... What makes you think THEY are all wrong, and you are correct? Ever had a close call yet? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

+1. The goal of any Tandem is to give the student a fun and safe jump. Many times landing on your ass is easier and safer than trying to stand up. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I don't think that is what he said. At least I didn't read that in his response. No, but a Tandem and an AFF are two totally different situations. For example AFF students are required to wear a helmet... Tandem students are not. In the Tandem jump there is minimal risk of any type of entanglement since the TI has total control over both the camera AND the deployment. In AFF, you only have control over your deployment (as evidenced by your own picture). You might end up on the other side. You might have to "assist" with the deployment by grabbing the students PC or bridle....etc. So they are not the same. In addition, you yourself have said that you do not get really good footage with the HC on AFF jumps. So when you compare the benefits between the two to the risks between the two... There is enough of a difference that it seems by many to be a bad idea. Now, you are a smart enough guy, and it is YOUR ass on the line. So personally, I don't care. But, I don't see much benefit either. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

RSL and AAD is a backup.... Nothing more. They are *seperate* devices. While they CAN help in some of the same situations.... They are not replacements for each other. 1. An AAD may not fire if you are below 1k. 2. Being below 1k with a mal means you have screwed up already. SIM states you are supposed to deal with a mal by 1800 feet. 3. If you are below 1800 feet.... Do not try to get stable before you pull. People have died at line stretch plenty of times "trying to get stable". Then maybe you should have an RSL ALL the time. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Lets see BillV has 5500 jumps AFF rating, Tandem rating (Expired) , has jumped a camera, has had an issue already. You have 260 jumps and have already had a camera issue. Of the two.... Which do YOU think knows more about skydiving? Lets not forget that you 'created' a malfunction procedure that no one ever suggested. Why is it so hard to grasp that others have more knowledge/skill/experience that you? I hope you never have a close call, but since you are ignoring everyone who has had one.... You seem to be the type that will only learn from his own experience.... I just hope it does not kill you. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Ah yes, the some have 'mad skill' argument. Ah yes, the 'if you dont have mad skill, do not follow my lead' comment "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I would not even want someone to lose a Title I weapon in freefall. Plus the main reason I will not let people jump weapons is I am not willing to watch buba try to rig up some 'method' and risk having an issue in freefall. I am also not going to sit around and approve different methods, I am not going to sit around and give J&PI's to every jumper with a crazy idea. So the best answer is to just not let anyone jump a weapon. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Your are wrong on so many levels.... And I say this as a person who has done pretty much everything on your list many, many times. Now that I have some time... I'll break down why. Things you listed that are stupid and you have 100% control over and are easy to fix: jumping in moderate to high winds - Don't exiting last on a long spot - Go around not enough separation on the jump run - Wait not checking your reserve pin/ripcord - Do it not checking your main pin - Do it jumping with other things on your mind - Don't jump Things that you have ZERO control over: unexpected winds on final Things that you would be smart to plan a dive for and not treat like a normal jump: jumping at a new dz - Pull higher trying a new canopy - Pull higher Things that are not a big deal: not using an RSL - Pull both handles... I have 4500 jumps without an RSL not using an AAD - I have 5010 and not had an AAD fire. jumping with a new jumper - AFF rated... I do it all the time. jumping at a lower than normal altitude - So????? Pull altitudes do not change. Jumping with a camera is like none of them. MAYBE like a new canopy at first. See, some people just do not understand WHY a camera is not "just another skydive". "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

A good idea, and it would not be too difficult. I am honestly thinking about maybe doing all the jumps but one at the DZ. Then maybe doing to one into the range + range, then run the three ranges. I think it might be MUCH faster and I do not want this to drag all day where people just stand around. I want people jumping or shooting. Maybe split the group into two and one starts at the range, the other at the DZ. Not yet.... Still in "design" phase and trying to get an idea of demand and realistic participation levels. But it will be 4-6 mths out so people can plan. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Better asked of a rigger... But I'll take a stab. * In a bag * Out of sunlight (UV does most of the damage) * Dry "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

The snag hazard is different, but both distract and require thought... In fact the small format cameras may be MORE dangerous in this manner since people do not think they are a big deal and ignore the danger. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I had a Tony Hathaway walk up to me once while I was talking WL with a new jumper..... The jumper had ZERO interest in paying attention to anything I had to say about the subject.... When the new jumper left, Tony looked at me and said something along the lines of, "Funny thing is that if you were to offer a suggestion on how to freefall better.... that guy, and ones like him, would listen to every word you say. But as soon as you talk canopy they ignore you." (To be fair... I do have a ton more FF medals than canopy medals) Then Tony and I went up and he hooked his Specter in a nice 90* carve, and I went DWD on the pond. Of course, we have no idea what we are talking about. I for one will freely admit that a camera almost killed me once when I was young and stupid. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Not if it was stored correctly. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You do disagree since you keep trying to prove otherwise. Until you realize that it is not the damn camera itself that is the issue but the MINDSET AND DISTRACTION that is the major issue..... There is no point in discussing this ad nauseam every few weeks. There is not a rash of AFF students dying under Velos.... But that does not mean it is a good idea. You seem to continually ignore the personal accounts that DSE has collected in the video forum... "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Love the idea of jumping "combat ready"... But do not like the additional risk it would bring to the skydiving portion of the program. As a military jumper you know it is not as easy as just strapping a weapon on and getting out of the plane. I don't want to have to do the testing needed to ensure we know what freefall rigging will be safe enough to jump. And I don't want to have to give J&PI's to each jumper to check their equipment. Plus my least expensive Title II item is over 4K. *I* am not going to risk jumping it and while I am willing to loan my gun out to those that do not have one to shoot... there is no chance in hell I am going to let someone else jump it either. Plus the "control" issues. I have done plenty of tactical shoots where we start without anything and have to accomplish a task to get the materials. Yep the time it takes to land, drop your gear, run to the target, pick up your ammo, run to the range and clear the targets is all added together and is very simple to score. I have found that time is a very easy way to score.... When you start trying to add in other scoring methods it gets complicated, AND gives people a reason to nit pick the method and bitch about the way the score was completed. Time from landing to cleared targets is easy and can be briefed in like 30 seconds. Yes, but depending on how I run it... We could change everything. 1. Say I want to land AT the range and time it all in one shot... (I really like this idea). This will limit to people with 200+ jumps based on the landing area and the "distance to obstacles" in the SIM. (Maybe higher, I have to take an S&TA out there and look around). However.... 2. Say I have the Accuracy portion at the DZ... Then I could let some "A" student participate. But would that kill the fun a bit? I agree.... The RO's wanted a list ways to ensure the person is qualified...... So I was spitballing those ideas. I agree a "range day" would be the best option for everyone. Entry fees we are working on... I don't plan on making any money, but I do not want to lose money on the deal. I have the RO's working on a price to set up, run, and rent the range.... they will get back to me this week. I need to talk to the pilot and DZO about how much jumps will cost and what plane we will use. We could use the KA on the ride up and hop out... Or we could just take the Cessna 206 for the day (but that means I need an additional pilot). This will be figured out once I decide how and where I am going to run the skydiving portion. The DZ and Range are 8.5 miles apart..... So I would have to figure getting people back to the DZ to take off again. Once I get the RO/Range fees and figure out the lift ticket issue... I'll be able to figure out fees. Prizes.... I already have some people lined up to donate prizes... Once I this goes from "idea" to "plan" I'll work on getting more. thanks for your input.... I am working on it. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Just because they argue that does not make it true..... Just like the guy with 100 jumps that claims he will only land his velo 90 straight in and never turn low.... "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Range is a tactical shoot... there are no bulls-eyes. I thought about your idea.... But that brings a few issues. I thought about ranking the accuracy winners from worst to best.. So for example in order of close to far: Bob 1 foot out (4) Jim 2 feet out (3) Mike 2 feet 1 inch out (2) John 20 feet out (1) Then do the same for time clearing the targets: John 51 seconds (4) Mike 65 seconds (3) Jim 66 seconds (2) Bob 2hrs and 10 mins (1) In this case the ranking would be: Bob (5 points) Jim (5 points) Mike (5 points) John (5 points) See the problem? I could create a "sport sized" scoring system for the landings. And that could work.... But the easiest is flat out time. I *could* run the event like a hit and chug where a weapon is on the target and you have to land, run to it and (using snap caps) load and dry fire it and your time stops. Then we could go to the range and run it like a regular comp. Add the two scores and you get the score for each round. This may be the only way to actually run this event and prevent a slowdown due to AC issues. Frankly, I love the idea of adding the stress of the jump, acc comp, and tach shoot as one event.... It *may* be impossible based on time. But that is one of the reasons I started this thread was to get input on how the people that would show would LIKE it to be run. I am open to any suggestions. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

It has little to do with the camera itself. This has been stated many times. It is the additional mental task load and mindset that goes with jumping the camera. Not when the issue (snag hazard) is applicable. The issue is people think that since the camera is small that it is not a big deal. But the mental load and distraction is the SAME no matter the size of the camera. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

That is why I wanted to make it a pure timed event... Totally fair. I got the idea from some tactical shoots we hold. In some events we had to perform a task before starting on the targets... It might have been to clear a malfunction, start a fire, do a puzzle..etc. Well I thought the idea had some merit and would be easy to judge. For example, how would you make it so the jumping and the shooting was exactly 50%???? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

No safe way to pull that off. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

We would prefer it. But we know that not everyone has everything and that travel with several weapons by air sucks. Several: MP5, Max11, Uzi, 9mm AR.....That is the least difficult part of the whole process. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334