Ron

I normally do not let people lurk my tandems if there is video.... Why? Most times THEY try to get on video and the whole jump is not about them. I made the mistake of letting some guys come out and lurk my tandem... They both claimed to have 1000+ jumps. I only ever saw one of them in freefall, and I spent most of my time trying to avoid getting hit by him. That ended my letting people I don't know lurk anything. So if I know you, I might let you... If I don't know you you can either not go, or have someone else be the TI "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You would be the only person that it works that way. You may be thinking that you will not panic, but that is not the same as the temporal distortion. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

But you have to balance the higher number of two outs that will happen. The end result is the AAD is a LAST ditch effort if you failed to do anything correctly. I'd venture that the number of people that died because the AAD didn't fire in time is pretty small. And never forget that the jumper had to already screw up several times to get an AAD fire. You can't make skydiving perfectly safe. The very nature of the sport will not let that happen. Because if the USPA mandated a higher pull altitude then AAD makers could raise the AAD firing altitude. This would save a small number of people that would not already be saved with the current configurations. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yep..... But you really need to read the manual since they are all different. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yes, it was so low we had to land it!!!! Here is one that will make a few people sick.... 4 people in a C130 "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

More stupid deaths happen due to high WL's than lowpulls. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Ding, ding, ding.... We have a winner!!!! You want to save lives? Make a BSR about exp and what canopy/size you can fly. You would save more lives that way. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Some from my demo days "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Can we agree that RSL's INCREASE some risks??? CRW, Camera..etc? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Oooooh... Nice Short Accurate and a little snarky.... I like it!!!!! I'll take this for 100 Alex! "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Well that would have saved the girl in Perris.... I can think of quite a few others off the top of my head that died thinking they could fix the problem. How about the "Time seems to disrupt while knee deep in shit" angle? Do you think the people that chopped at 500 feet thought they were that low? Or is it more likely that they kept trying to fix a problem they thought they could get a handle on until they ran out of altitude? When in an emergency situation time distorts.... It is very easy to spend what you think is a millisecond on a problem only to find out that you have spent a great deal more time on the problem. Have you done this? Have you had a mal yet? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Knowing the potential dangers and potential benefits and making an informed choice is an "objectively valid reason" even if you do not agree with it. Blindly jumping an RSL without consideration of the potential dangers is not objectively valid reasoning. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

It would cause a bunch of two outs and then eventually people would modify their behavior... Just like when AAD's became popular. Then, someone would claim that raising the AAD firing altitude again would save more lives..... ETC. The point is the AAD is a LAST chance. Like a hail Mary pass. Too be totally honest, we could raise the min pull altitude to 4k and set AAD's for 2K and we would save tons of lives. But the idea is, and should remain IMO, that the AAD is a LAST CHANCE. If you are needing it, you have screwed up several times already. A MUCH better focus, IMO, would be to work on better training and using better judgment to avoid the need for AAD's. To the person who refused a slot on a bigway because it was below her pull altitude.... BRAVO!!!!! Way to use your head and not succumb to peer pressure! "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

The point is that the staff told them they would most likely jump and tried to get them to pay. When they didn't jump they didn't get a refund. So, it the TI going to get paid for the jump he didn't make? Is the fuel vendor going to get paid for the fuel the DZ didn't use? Is the pilot going to get paid for the load he didn't fly? Is the packer going to get paid for the rig he didn't pack? Etc?????? Seems the staff is quick to encourage people to pay now and wait.... I have seen it. If the students had been told, "Hey, it might clear but we would like you to pay now... Of course if you don't jump then you will not get a refund" You think they would have paid right then? I have been at that DZ for an event and they wanted us to pay for all the jumps up front. The weather looked iffy so I asked about the refund policy. They told me no refunds. So I told them there was no way in hell I was going to pay for all the jumps in advance. They told me I had to... I told them that unless I was able to get a refund there was no way in hell I would pay for all of them in advance. Now, most Tandem students are not going to be so savvy. In the end, the DZ didn't provide a service, so they should not charge the customer. There was no additional spoilage..... It is a crap policy. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Because it is safer to assume that and act now than to try something cool and risk another problem from preventing you from dealing with it later. 1-10-100 principal. The faster you fix a problem, the less energy it costs to fix the problem. Lets say you chop from 12k.... Well you can always follow your main. Yes, you might lose the freebag. Now lets say you decide to ride the wild ride. Soon you find yourself dizzy and starting to black out. Guess what? Now it might be too late to chop. Why risk it? Again, 2000 dollar vs my life. Easy to answer. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Not yet, but it could happen. I also feel I can draw it back or move it before they can grab it. Plus, I always make sure that one hand is always away from them. Before I was back on the SIGMA, I always kept my right hand "hidden" from the student anyway. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I'd say he would still cut it... As would I. 2000 vs. my life....... Not a difficult choice actually. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You only say that because they agree with YOUR personal views. I guess you would claim that I am somehow not reasonable???? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Not directed at you... Just leading off your comments. This is the key point. Before AAD's were popular, 2K deployments were very common. Heck, I can remember our local DZ rule's were something along the lines of 4 way and below, breakoff was 2.5-3k. Bigger than that and it was 3.5k. When AAD's become popular, breakoff and pull altitudes went up. Before - Common to pull at 2k After - 2.5-3k Then the advent of really HP canopy's the pull altitudes went up again... On their own. Heck, just look at this thread and how many people now still pull regularly at 2k. I don't, but will. Making a rule is unnecessary since it is happening anyway. I respect Booth. Let him make the AAD that deploys higher, state his reasons and the market will either accept, or not. But making a rule to try and "build a better mousetrap" is not the way it should work. And when do we stop raising the min pull altitudes? If 3k is safer, then surely 4k is safer still... right? And 5k is SO much safer then. When do we stop? The fact is that the USPA's minimum pull altitudes are exactly that MINIMUM'S. They are not *required*, they are not *suggested*, they are minimums. If you are on a group that wants to break lower than you are comfortable with... don't jump with that group. If you have a canopy that takes a long time to open, either get a new canopy or avoid jumps where you might have to pull low. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Do students and tandems get to follow that same policy? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

That's awesome!!!!! Hell, till I had my first malfunction there was always that little voice in the back of my head wondering if I would react correctly.... I mean I was pretty sure I would and trained and drilled etc... But so many people bounced from simple mals that I had a smiggen of wonder. You don't have that. You have already had one. I say good on you... Relax and have some fun. If it is not fun, don't force yourself to continue. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And I have seen them tell people that it will clear and that they should pay now and wait around since it 'will' clear. I can understand a no refund policy if the person is local... But if they are traveling from quite a distance that is stupid. Also the 50 dollar transfer fee is stupid as well. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You are free to do anything you want. 1. Get a different canopy 2. Don't go on jumps that they require you to pull below your comfort zone. Mandatory hanging harness drills every day would save lives as well. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You need to get over that.... It will slow you down and possibly hurt you. My bet is that they will not let you jump. And if the DID let you jump.... I'd be VERY worried about the quality of instruction. This is your best course of action..... We used to teach people how to pack in the FJC. This weekend I saw a guy with 12 jumps and a girl with ZERO being taught how to pack (bad weather). I know packers that pack for a living that have not made a single jump. You can learn to pack at anytime and this would be a very good use of your time. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Impressive. My point is that a reserve ride is not really a gigantic deal. If it is more than that, I could understand... Like a drogue in tow. But (for me and to me), a tension knot that resulted in a perfect cutaway is not really a big deal. But you are an evaluator and if you say it is a big deal, I guess it is. And the manufacturer has the right to ask for anything.... I *personally* think it is stupid and a bit much. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334