Ron

Ya limy basterds don't even live here... Now I Know why we left. Most of the shit in this rant was lead by Mr. Clinton. (bankrupt states...ya really think this can happen in a year?) How the hell is 9/11 his fault...You telling me that if Mr Cigar was in office OBL would not have killed 3,000 people? Uh yeah right. As for not tpping the reserves....Seems like it was not need now huh? Geeze you people kill me. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I would rather have a guy on a Velocity at 1.1 than a Specter at 1.8. At every DZ...Who would be qualified to make this judgment? To much work..The USPA will not do it. You *could juat tie wing load to the current license structure...But this plan works as well, and it has more levels. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

What you are missing here is that old AAD's were at times dangerous...They could hurt/kill you...The CYPRES changed that...It is why AAD's are now cool...They were not reliable...now they are. Canopy issues are different...The problem with Canopy control classes are that: 1. not all DZ's have them. 2. Even the USPA's ISP is not done by all DZ's. 3. Peer presure against them (see Michele's fine posts about this.) 4. Hot shots don't think they need them.."I don't need it, Im a natural." I think they are great, but there are not enough, and the people that need them to survive, won't take them because they are not cool. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Nope, but at which point does a person need a new reserve? I have one with 6 rides on it....I trust it, and my rigger is very good and I trust her (Plug for Sally). I don't worry about it...But how many would you say? FWIW..If the manual says no...then no. If my rigger says no...then no. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Well it does say: So in my opinion...If the manual says it can't be switched...then it should not be. [Loud voice at Green Ramp]RIGGER???[/Loud voice at Green Ramp] Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

FAA? Canopy Maker? Theory of the "Magical" reserve? Where do you get this info from? Not trying to be an ass, but I have never seen this written. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

When I used to pull low....I had a guy come up to me and ask if I have ever seen a bounce...I told him no. He told me to not do them until I have seen one...Now that I have see some...I don't like to pull low. Of course back then I didn't listen...So, two guys came up to me. One said If you bounce I will piss on your body while it is still warm. The other said...Pull low again, and I will kick your ass. Then about 6 others said they would help him. I stoped pulling low....Well below 1500. Now that I have almost 3,000 jumps...I pull at 2,500...Funny huh? Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Nothing.... But what I am wishing is that they will learn enough not to kill themselves....The problem is right now they can get them at 100 jumps. This delays them while they learn some more basic life saving skills. Do you not find it interesting that only one guy with more than 500 jumps died last year "hooking it"...And that guy was stoned? Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yeah John, I knew about that, but didn't want to seem like I was trying to make the #'s look better by picking which to report.... So if you take out the guy with 1,500 jumps that was stoned. The Average number of jumps for hook turns (not panic turns) last year is 315.... Anyone see the issue? Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Not if people don't do it...So you would have to make it manditory... I think Michele wrote that people made fun of her for taking a canopy control class...As long as that happens people will not just do it unless they have to. Also..As Rob pointed out just because people were tought...Does not mean they will learn, or remember... So how do you plan to make it manditory, AND MAKE them learn and remember? And it has to be a nationally used program...which even the current ISP is not. So regulation will work... Peer pressure has not, in fact it most of the time is the reverse. USPA current training program is not being used everywhere...And it has been pointed out that people don't learn anyway. So training does not seem to work either. But if you have a plan that covers all this...please let me know. Bill, if you can come up with a "checkout" I am all for it...But the best I have seen so far is make them qualify for a PRO to be able to downsize....Hell the program already is there. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Water training is not easy to lie about? Well I got my water traing at 1800 jumps almost 5 years after it was signed off... So anything that requires just a sign off....Will get just signed off by some. Look at "pencil packs" Thats why regulation is needed..It will get ignored at times as well...But it is harder to do if people actually look. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

So suddenly they WILL pay attention? What is wrong with keeping them safe till they do learn either from a school, or the school of hard knocks? Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yes but break it down: 135 Panic turn to avoid an object 270 hook turn 521 collapsed canopy...I would not count this as a "Landing" more like "Malfunction" 200 Hook 275 Hook 201 Panic 1500 Hook 500 no info CT. 170 Hook 160 Hook 800 Medical..This jumper did not try to control her canopy at all during the decent. I would take out the Collapsed canopy Has nothing to do with landing...It was spun up. And the medical she never even released the toggles. 379 would then be the average. This is even with the guy with 1500 jumps. Even if you just look at the ones that were hook turns not panic turns. 429 Anyone have info on the guy with 500 jumps in CT? Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Thes are great if you know something about basic body flight. And if you know something about 4way already... Try Calling Skydive U..I think they put out a basic tape a few years ago... And Majic is planning on doing one in the tunnel. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

QuoteCanopy flight basic things such as "below" should be taught in AFF. recovery arc rock point slow speed flight flat turns flying in rear risers front riser dives to get out of wind Quote Peep the ISP.... But still, the people you saw in Perris were tought to flair in the AFF course..Why can't they do it now? How does this help this problem? Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

OK where are your FACTS? I don't agree with them. Show me. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

why? Its not AFF students hooking it in..Its guys with 300 jumps that think they can handle it...If anything there would need to be a class at 250 jumps....But I don't think that alone is the answer either...The first thing that needs to happen is that these guys really need to know they are over their heads. Several times I have gone up to a guy that just pulled a landing out of his ass, and told him so...At which point I get told I don't know what I am talking about. (My favorite part of this is when I point out that I have almost 3,000 jumps in 10 years on things from a T10 to a 69 extreme (2.6 to 1 back in 96), and my shoes have more jumps than they do.) At which point they tell me that I am just trying to hold them back because I am afraid that they will be better than me. ??!?!?!?!?! Ah OK....Yeah, thats what I am trying to do. But I am an evil person cause I am limiting their personal freedom. Here is a secret...I listen to everybody...And if a guy walks up to me and tells me I was low...Guess what? I was period. And if a guy with 3,001 jumps or 11 years in the sport tells me something, I listen... Most 300 jump "wonders" don't....Because they are better than the "others" who did what they did and died. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

OK, but Rob do you think that everyone takes as much time/effort as you did? Do you think you are the norm out there? So like I said, maybe you are an exception...How much worse would you have been if you had to wait till you had 500 jumps to get that canopy? More importantly do you think that everyone is capable to do what you did? I would have to say no, and the incident reports agree with me. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

So they would be better under smaller canopies?... Or is it that they don't have the right training?...Funny, I remember from my FJC almost 10 years ago to do a full flair...Don't they teach people to flair anymore? Or is it that some people just don't get it no matter how much they are told? Careful, you are about to argue my point for me. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Not really the point....I am not trying to discredit you... I am just showing how this is part of the problem.. It really does not matter IF YOU can do it...The point I am making is this is an attitude of ALL of the people that are jumping HP canopies with not a lot of jumps. You *MIGHT* be really good...A natural..Or you might be lucky. Point is that not everyone is that skilled or lucky. And yes, I would like to hear from Lisa about you...Not that it changes anything. I can pull low...I know what gear to use, and how to pack it...I have had several malfunctions, so I know how to see it, and react to it fast. Still it does not make it ok for me to do it. And just because I MIGHT be able to do it...Does not make it OK for everyone...Thats why we have BSR's Ron BTW I have spent A LOT of time in freefall below 1500 feet...It does not mean its a good idea. That was when I had 300-800 jumps. And now with almost 3,000 jumps I pull at 2,500. Funny huh? You would think that the more skill I got..The lower I could pull. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

A reserve is not fragile...It has higher degrees of care... The truth is that it is a canopy...simple as that. But since it is a last resort, it is made as strong as possible, is inspected more, is kept as simple as possible..No collapsable sliders, no dive loops (well ok I have a rig with them)ect... The fact that they are used to "save you"...Even though a main does it all the time, leads people to treat them as if they are "magical"... I personally have a PD113 with six rides on it. Am I worried? Nope. Its just a canopy, I trust my rigger, and I trust the company that made it. Will I get a new one? Sure as soon as I need to have two rigs again. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Nope infact I would say that the 100-600 jump range is probley the largest skydiving group. Number of Members by Total Jump Numbers according to the USPA: 0-25 -- 21.3% 26-250 -- 33.0% 250+ -- 45.7 So over half of all jumpers in the USPA have less than 250 jumps. But what I will add that while 200-600 jumps may be close to the largest segment....But this group also has the largest INCREASE in the rate of fatalities over the past few years... Yes, it makes sense that the largest segment will have the most fatalities...Just as the US will have more than say Mexico due to the larger jump numbers...But the fact that this segment has seen an increase in fatalities over the last few years is very indicative of a problem. As someone pointed out even just from 2001 to 2002 there was a very large increase in fatalities in just this group. See the logic now? Why would ONLY this group have a rising incident rate? Answer is because they are getting canopies that this group was unable to get before....And they think that they are better educated than this group before them...Then why are they dying more? Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yep, but they also consider someone with 100 jumps to be experienced. I have seen some reports where they call anyone with any license "experienced". "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I could not even list the # of injuries at Zhill in the last 12 mths.... I know that the ones I got blood on my hands were ALL people with 100-600 jumps. The 600 jumps guy died, but it was I think part turbulance part toggle input that spun him up. One guy with a couple thousand jumps comited suicide, so I don't count that one. One guy with 400-500 jumps hit the bunker. One guy with 100 jumps flew a 1.5 canopy into the ground without a flare. One guy with ~600 jumps? Turned to miss a cow...But this guy just came back from another low turn injury. These are just the ones I can remember...know why? Because unless I am running to stop the flow of blood, I really don't take notice anymore....It happens too much. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Ya know why I choose last year?.... Simple..It was last year. Now the reason tha we are seeing an increase in the number of jr jumpers flying a canpopy to their death is quite simple.... They can. Back when the Stiletto came out there was a waiver to get one....And if it was a 107 or 97, there was a size waver as well. Now that is not the case. Almost anyone with 100 jumps can get a Stiletto/Crossfire/Cobalt with out any problem. Now some people (Thanks Lisa) will not let them...But then these people will just buy a used one from some guy that does not care. So you see Jr swoopgods flying canopies they die under is becomming a problem because the canopies are easier to get these days, either new, or on the used market. About how the other countries death rates under canopy is not a valid ratio due to the raw number of jumps....Statisticly the larger the number pool, the better the result....However, to discount it due to the lack of large numbers is foolish. And simply a tactic to try to make my points seem invalid.... Too bad my points are valid, based on just the numbers in the US. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334