Ron

Yes, but I always thought the larger canopy at the same wingload would fly faster due to the lines, and the pilot not being "scaled" as well. But I do know that a smaller canopy will turn faster. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yep, it does piss people off. The Advanced class was created to allow the good weekend teams a place to fight like hell against each other and come home with the prize. I have been to Nationals twice...Both times in Open. 10th in 98, and 7th in 2001...The 7th ment more to me than winning Advanced would have based ont he fact we had a 14.9, and Advaced was won with a 13.6 (I think). But I find it funny that I HAD to go Open, and other teams can hire World Class jumpers and go Advanced. And the only reason they would go Advanced is to get the medal. Just seems really screwed up to me. Keep the Professional skydivers in Open. But you have said before that you admit that a PRO will make a team better....So doon't you think they should not be in the weekend class? Well the class was created to allow the weekend teams to fight it out and have achance at some bragging rights...I think it is a good idea. Weekend teams have no chance against the teams like the GK's Airspeed Majic...ect. So give them a class that they can compete with each other. But some peoples greed to get a medal makes them hire Pro's to try and win a lower class...And to make things even more screwed up, the team that won Advanced last year HAS to go open. And you can only have ONE memeber that has an Advanced Gold on an Advanced team, but you can have 3 guys that have open Bronze if you can afford it. Makes no sense to me. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

But it is an advantage...One that a team that does not use a PRO and works hard on their own could see it as cheating. We have people over here trying to buy teams and enter into lower classes just to medal...Thats pretty sad to me. You want to hire a PRO fine by me, but don't use it to short cut the system and win a medal agaist a team that didn't. Well its really messed up, and the USPA will not change it. Seems unfair huh? NSL is NOT the USPA....NSL has Rookie, A, AA, AAA.... USPA has Intermediate, Advanced , and Open. The NSL AA is equal to the USPA Intermediate. The NSL AAA, is equal to the USPA Advanced/Open draw. Now the USPA Advanced class and Open Class use the SAME DRAW. So why would a team in Advanced hire a Pro, and enter Advanced if not for the medal? They could do the SAME dives if they went Open, and post the same scores...The only difference is they will not medal in Open. So see how I see it as cheating? They hire a Pro, and then compete in a class that was intended for weekend non-pro teams. You can't have more than one person on an Advanced team with a gold enter into Advanced. They HAVE to enter open, but you can hire three Pros and go Advanced? Yep, but you will score better with Pete than with a peer.. I think it is fine to hire a Pro...I just think you should have to jump against them and leave the Intermediate to the beginers, and the Advanced to the Weekend teams. Keep the Pro's in Open. So now that you know that the Advaced teams do the open draw, and the ONLY reason to hire a PRO and compete in Advanced is to get a medal....Can you see how that could be unfair to the teams that don't do that? Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

wow that was well written. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

As I said, it will up the average a little,The other 3 on your team would still have had to have done pretty well. But even a good intermediate team with an Airspeed or Majik coach in one of the slots isn't going to move from an 8 point average to an 18 point average. You still have to fly your own slot. If we assume the player coach is a 'perfect' skydiver who never brainlocks or makes a mistake, he or she is still only 25% of the team. In the UK junior and intermediate teams (we have junior, intermediate and senior classes) are allowed one 'wild card'. I guess this equates to your player coach. The wild card can have as many jumps and as much experience as you like, as long as the other 3 have under a specified number of jumps when they register at the start of the season. My team jumps intermediate (your Advanced) in the UK and we have a wild card. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Congradualtions.... Welcome to a sport that will change your life. You should be proud...99% of the world will never know the feelings or see the sights you will. 10 years and 3,000 jumps later..I'm still a student. Keep that attitude, and you will go far...Act like you already know all you need....Bad things can happen. Be safe, watch your altitude, AND attitude. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Why? ...Why would that be so hard, and further have "no chance in hell" of passing? Please elaborate. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Thanks Winsor, Your input would be more than welcome by me. And thanks for drilling canopy flight into my head. You are the reason that I look out for low timers, while trying to help them advance. I don't want them to be held back, I just want the to advance safley, and with the knowledge needed to make it. I am not in favor of just a class...I would like a performance test that they have to pass. If they can pass it...Then they should be allowed to downsize...And if they are really ready to downsize, then the test should not be an issue. I fear that regulation is the only way to make people seek the knowledge..The classes are there, but the ones that are at risk of getting killed trying to hook...Are not taking them. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I jumped with an intermediate team for an FSL when one of the guys got hurt. The scores for all of thier meets are: 8.7, 11.2, 8.0, 9.6, 8.0, 8.4. Guess which meet I jumped with them? They never even broke a 10 before, but with me they did an 11.2. And they have not been over 10 since. I think this shows how a Player Coach does help the average. I just spent 2 hrs in the tunnel with Joey Jones...It is the fastest my team has even gone in the tunnel...But it was only one guy changed. It does make a difference. Yep let them hire who they want, but then they should have to compete against the top teams if they want to hire them...It robs the teams that didin't hire a player coach. Then why would you have people hiring world class jumpers to jump in Advanced if not to get a medal? They could do the smae jumps in Open? Seems to be about a medal to them. Or people to bring up some of the problems....And others who don't truely understand the issue. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

However in the case of THAT thread it WAS relative. I disagree I think it IS appropriate. However a big difference between the AAD/RSL and the WL issue is that MOST agree that AAD's/RSL's are good. In fact most of the retoric about them is FOR them. However for some reason...I really don't know why. A high WL without the proper training or experience is seen as fine. I agree that the PA accident WL did not fall into the proposed BSR... However I think that it DOES point out the serious lack of canopy training beyond the FJC...Some of which has been addressed by the ISP (Which is not being used at a large number of DZ's...that points out some serious flaws in the system). Which is all I did on this one. All I did was say: So here is one that might have been helped by the WL BSR. Then the shit storm started...I had no intention of starting the BSR thread there...But others did. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Well, if the rule was to make EVERYONE pass a test before they can jump a high WL..Then you could take the jump numbers out of it. I am not against this kind of rule, but to make EVERYONE test out would be very hard...There would be a lot more work into this kind of path. And to be honest this would have no chance in hell of passing. The graduated WL to jump numbers allows someone to progress at a moderate pace without jumping through hoops.. Only the ones that want a high wingload without a certain degree of experience would have to go out of their way to jump a high WL. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

If it helps ONE person its worth it. To whom? Its a fact that his high wingload and lack of experience contributed to this accident and the injuries. Pointing out a FACT is not disrespectful. I'll let you do that...It is not a factor..so I don't care..However it DOES point the lack of education about canopy flight. And I disagree....You don't like what I write feel free to not read anything I write. As for me I have the right to point out what I see. And I will contiune to do just that. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yep, because that after 500 jumps you have gained more experience than you could possibly have at 300. And with experience we hope you have gained some knowledge and skills. There HAS to be a way to test out for the advanced student...but there also has to be a way for a person to follow a normal progression to the same end. The goal of this BSR is to make people get training and PROVE that they can handle a higher wingload before being allowed to fly it. But we also have to let people progress if they can't get the instruction. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

When I started....Some of the "old timers" on the DZ used to call me young punk. But that was 10 years ago, I was 20, and I bet they were right. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Well put. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Bill I have tried. Zen only posts the same argument, and I am done answering it. I don't have the number of people that have not died jumping over the proposed WL BSR...Becasue nobody has that information. And to be honest it is a weak argument at best. If you take the time to look he would see that there is a profile of the dead people that does stand out. But he is not interested in that. So I am done here. I am not going to argue with him. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I don't know what numbers you have...but the ones I look at say there is an issue. Yes, I don't know how many are in "violation", but I do know that most of the dead hook turners did fit a profile. You just will not admit that...You insted throw out at every chance that since I don't have the number to draw the percentage from that there is not an issue...I really wish you would get a real argument instead of empty arguments. And that was not inflamatory...It was a statment of FACT. You however didn't see it that way. I can tell you that the profile of most of the dead is under 500 jumps and a high wingload...But since I don't magicly have the numbers of EVERY PERSON WHO HAS MADE A SKYDIVE ABOVE THAT...My numbers don't mean squat? You need to get real. People with little experience and a high wingload are the largest segment of the dead under good canopies...Just because I don't have anumber than NO ONE has, does not change that. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I didnt start Zen off... "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Nope I am just bringing it up as an issue....You want to drag it all together. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yep it is a general saftey issue, but also it is a factor in this accident... And that is why my 1st post was sent....Zen gets a little over zealous at times. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

No, you asked if I would be fine with it....And I don't care personally...You will not prove much. You will just add noise. But please do feel free to do this. As long as you agree when it would have been an issue. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Feel free...Although you will look stupid saying it. I only bring it up because its true, and it is relative. It is the reason I started this whole WL thing. How about the simple fact that the WL was a major factor in this incident? Seems to fit in to me. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

D-17112 Can I get in, or am I too old? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yep. And that is a problem...A guy with 20 jumps does not know he does not have the skill to handle it...Most times a guy with 300 jumps does not know he does not have the skill. And the bigger problem is there are places that will let him jump it. I don't have a problem with a guy jumping something he PROVES he can handle. I do have a problem with a guy that just wants to go smaller because he stood up 90% of his landings. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yep...But since I don't do head down but once in a long while....However I could have a mal on every jump...For me I like the hard handle. I am not going to try and tell people that the soft handles are dangerous...However I have had my cutaway handle get tucked under my harness which resulted in a 700 or so foot cutaway. (Ask Paul at the bar...he has some nice video from Tony) I do not wish to take that same chance with my reserve handle. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334