Ron

I'd rather be unconscious under my bigger 7 cell reserve than my smaller elliptical. I'd rather have an unstable opening under my bigger 7 cell reserve than my smaller elliptical. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

So he was *unable* to pull the reserve himself? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

But it STILL separates the people landing unlike right now. Right now with 60 acres people land in 10 of them. Make them land in all 60, and we separate them and decrease the density. Fact is that what we are doing now is not working. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Not really. The same concept applies and will allow me to land a modern canopy pretty much like an accuracy canopy. The difference between full and braked flight is less on a no wind day, but on a ~10 MPH day I can land a modern canopy pretty much like a traditional accuracy approach to include the sink straight down from 8-10 feet. Everything else is pretty much correct, but even a modern canopy in half brakes is going to shorten the glide path. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Maybe, but it seems landing/approach patterns into one landing area is becoming confusing and getting people killed. And the BEST answer is to have only smart heads up people who are always 100% on top of their game..... Yet, this has not worked so far, and some really skilled canopy pilots and skydivers have had collisions.... The only thing that will 100% prevent collisions is to only allow one jumper in the air at a time. But our current program of a free for all into one landing area is clearly not working. As for your pattern issue... This separate landing area plan seems to work on big ways where everyone is on the same formation. You would just have to select the landing zone for each group based on wind direction. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Is this another separate issue, or just the same issue again? It seems like a separate issue... I tend to recall that the old issue was elevator control cable. If it is separate.... When will he learn? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

As with any 'rule' there are other rules that over ride it... Such as do not EVER pull below 2k feet.... Unless you are still in freefall below 2k. We have people doing this now, but without any attempt to get separation. We already have this. Just because you try to have people land in certain areas does not mean people can just stop looking. Of course... But how has that been working out so far? Canopy collision deaths are at an all time high. So that alone is not working. What about doing BOTH? Why drawback could there be in separating landing areas? Right now we have an otter load trying to land in 10 acres. Zhills has about 60 acres of landing area. It is pretty damn clear that while a few people are smart enough to avoid the congestion the number of canopy collisions show that not everyone thinks that way. Nonsense.... Total nonsense. Any smart person will still look out for other people and reducing the congestion will make that easier. Anyone that would stop looking around if this was implemented should be grounded forever. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Here is just a quick example: 1st group has to land in box 1 2nd group has to land in box 2 3rd group has to land in box 3 4th back to #1 5th back to #2 6th back to #3 Swoopers have to be in the pond area, or you could make it pond or box 3 and the normal jumpers land in 1 and 2. As it is now, almost everyone lands in half of box #2, just by making the jumpers spread out we reduce the chance of collision. So even if you made it that the first half had to land in Box 1 and the second in Box2, we have added safety. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Same way I fell. Tandem to get the idea and one to one canopy control lessons. A few SL/IAD's to get canopy control dialed in and comfortable with the whole canopy flight. Then AFF to work on freefall. It seems to me that the current program puts the focus on freefall skills, yet that is not the area where we are having folks getting killed. So now the USPA is talking about a canopy proficiency card. This could have been answered by this hybrid program. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Why should they get a break? But right now we don't allow non-swoopers to land in the swooping area.... Students get a waiver. I don't know which incident prompted this thread, but the separate landing areas for separate groups was an idea I thought up years ago. It would take some organization, but it could work. Take a big area like Zhills. Cut the main landing area into 3-4 areas. Depending on the jump run and your exit order would determine your landing area. It could work if we just educated the jumpers. A canopy cop would be ideal, but today we do not have one. What we have now is an S&TA and heads up jumpers. Not long ago our S&TA banned a jumper due to his continual cutting off of other jumpers in the pattern. He had been talked to several times and finally they asked him to leave. The S&TA didn't actually SEE the event that broke the last straw, but several jumpers attested to it. Yes, the "privileged" would still get away with whatever they wanted... But I think that might happen even with a canopy cop on duty. Just trying to think outside the box and throw out ideas that I have not seen proposed before. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

But it was not spread out over a lifetime, it was spread out over 10-15 jumps. Don't get me wrong, I think coaching is great (I have spent a ton on it over my life and I make money on both skills and team coaching). I just don't like it being mandatory to the point you CANT do solos. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

It could be done, people are not willing to do it. You could stagger the opening altitudes of each group by 500', then forbid anyone from a later group to land before the last person in the first group. The problem is that it just never going to happen. It would be next to impossible to enforce. Guys from the 1st group might want to pull higher and hang in brakes to avoid the congestion, guys in the second group might want to land fast to be the first to get a packer (things I have been told). That is why relying on vertical separation will not work. We will not do it. My 8way team had a landing order. 99% of the time we landed in the same order. It can be done. I have taken an entire Otter load and put them in the same landing area with each jumper landing ~30 seconds after the jumper in front of him... It CAN be done, we just will not do it. The theory is solid, but it will never work because it is too difficult to get people to do it. A much better option is to treat every load like a big way. Each group has its very own landing area. Land in another area and you are grounded for the rest of the day. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You also have to factor in temperature and humidity. While Dubi is at sea level... It is also hot and dry. Hot will increase your density altitude. For example, lets say his home DZ is at 1,000 MSL and the temp is 72*. His Density Altitude will be ~2,367 feet. So now he goes to Dubi and the DZ is only 10 feet MSL but the temp is 100*. His density altitude there will be ~2,875 feet. So his canopy will fly faster in Dubi than at his home DZ. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Vertical separation could work... Except that we are always descending and not everyone follows the "rules" and is predictable. For example, when doing a stack out Demo into a tight area, the exit order and landing order is determined before you get on the plane. The landing order is based on higher wingload to lighter wingload. So the guy at 2:1 exits and lands first, then the 1:1.8, then the 1:1.5, then the same till you get to the 1:0.9. THEN they FLY that separation. the 1st guy flies to land first, the second guy flies to land second.... Etc. Using this, I have put 12 guys onto a 1'X 1' target. But look at a normal DZ.... Guys with big canopies tend to pull lower and guys with sub 100 tend to try and pull higher... right there the landing area is going to get congested. The smaller canopies descend faster and should be BELOW the bigger canopies. To have them open above then fly THROUGH the bigger canopies to land makes no sense. And the slower descending canopies being in front of the faster canopies will just crunch the separation. Then factor in the big canopies holding in brakes, the big canopies spiraling down, the small canopies trying to land first and the small ones trying to land last.... Well any chance of vertical separation working gets thrown right out the window. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

But they have nothing to compare it to..... Almost every student thinks that their DZ was the best place to learn. This is more an emotional attachment than a scientific decision. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

That's not how I remember it. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Go to a different DZ. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

To fix that we used to put rapid links on the B/C lines and lengthen the brake lines. This resulted in a canopy that dove a bunch more than stock AND made a neat clinking sound when you walked in. This was later kinda adopted by the factory and called something like the "speed mod". "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

The "good body position" of head high, hips down, and using your bootties is the mantis body position... The arms are just part of it, but a part that helps allow all the other parts to come into play. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yes, I start people on the Mantis as soon as they can show me they can get stable in a normal position. For some that might be 10 mins of tunnel, or 10 jumps. But I have taught a person pre-AFF to fly the mantis in the tunnel and then they used that position on their first jump. I have had this discussion several times with a tunnel/AFF student. Student: Can I fly in the mantis on this jump? Me: Can you be stable? Student: Yes. Me: Then yes. It is a body position that will only help you. Don't buy into some people telling you that it only works on "4way".... I have used it on AFF jumps to a 110 way and everything in between. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

If "a lot of people seem to remember it".... Wouldn't that make it "is known" still???? Heck remember the nickname Spinetto? The point being that it had a reputation... Earned or not, currently used or not.... It had one that was pretty well known and those of us around then remember it. As I said, my last Tandem chop was on a Strong in 2009, since then I have mainly been jumping UPT. My best guess is SET400's with spectra lines. And I only brought it up to back TK's tandem "jump to chop ratio" was not unheard of and that real or not, earned or not, Strong seems to have a higher malfunction % than the UPT system. At least in personal observation and beer fed campfire discussions. I would be very interested in seeing some hard data. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

1st thing you need to know is that the mantis is not a one position body position.... More like a flying style that focuses on getting your head up and using your legs more. I fly the concepts on everything but tandems, but that does not mean if you looked at me at any one point in the sky that I would be in a picture perfect "mantis" body position.... Between keys/grips/flashing.... It just is not going to happen. The time it takes to learn will TOTALLY depend on you and your coach. Suffice to say, that in 30 mins to an hour most people have started to get the concepts.... Wrong question to ask.... I don't consider myself to have "mastered" it and that is with 5k+ jumps and 200+ hours of tunnel with several medals and a World Record. I have been able to get people into the position in just a few minutes (10) and some people never really get it. Most of the time the more jumps you have, the longer it takes. I have a few friends that have 4000 jumps and I just can't get them to change their old habits. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Never paid attention to be honest. My last Strong chop was in 2009. If I had to guess, I'd say spectra. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I can think of two negative unintended side effects: 1. Cost prevents some jumpers from continuing. 2. The paid coaching structure prevents a mentorship program. I have had many students tell me that they just can't afford the program. And the continued seclusion of the students makes them feel alienated at the DZ (unless they are women.. then they have more attention than they need). "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

In no order... Packing, Maintenance, Design, It just happens. Since all of mine are on the same system, different rigs, different packers, different DZ's..... And that I have not had one yet in 200-300 jumps on another system, I'd tend to think design plays a part. Just like how a Stiletto is known for line twist chops, I personally think the Strong rig is more prone to tension knots. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334