Ron

They tried to make money.... Do you call up Papa John and thank him for making pizza? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Relative wind is all you really need to worry about. This is more a function of the speed of the plane than anything else. Take a C130 with a jump run of 130 knots vs an Otter with a speed of ~70 knots. The C130 you will be flat out vertical, the Otter will be 60* or so..... (wild ass guess). But the ANGLE is not really important. Your BODY POSITION is. If you are neutral, it will not matter how fast the platform is going. You will be in a perfect balance and stay still. If you force an angle, you will move. Moving can be really good (superfloaters, turning points on the hill) but this type of movement is more about your body position than trying to force an angle out the door. So... Long story short... I would not worry about a perfect angle on exit, I would worry about a perfect body position. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Does he also tell the people doing 90's that they are dangerous and should do a 270? I fail to see how MORE turn is better for anything but additional speed. For traffic, all turns are crap and the bigger the degree of turn the worse it is. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You are probably not going to find a DZ that will let a 16 year old jump either AFF, SL, or Tandem in FL. You can call and ask them, but my quick check of a few DZ's all said 18 on their websites. The tunnel suggestion is not bad, or maybe an hour of flight instruction in an airplane. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Intentionally exited at 1500. Intentionally pulled on another jump at ~1k. Accidental pull at around 600. All of those were under a Raven II main. All of those were when I had less than 500 jumps and thought I knew everything. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

No, many movies have skydiving as part of it... Transformers 2 had them jumping as well. Will it produce a bump? Sure, any coverage sparks the interest of people who would already be inclined. Heck, after a reported fatality FJS/Tandems increase. But PB was a movie that had sticking power. It is almost a cult classic and it preached a whole lifestyle that people wanted to buy into.... T3 does not do that. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I disagree, a 747 can be taken down in turbulence. Having jumped a big accuracy canopy and a xbraced 69.... Both can be bothered by turbulence. And if one were to partially collapse... I'd rather be under the big ass canopy than the small one. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Could have been another MIL Demo team... I can think of 4 others off the top of my head (82d, Silver Wings, Black Daggers, SOCOM). And I could not tell the size or location of the landing area based on that video.... It might have been like at Zhills where they have a pond and some buildings close to it, but a LARGE landing area that would make it an open field demo. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You missed the smiley on my post... You must assuredly CAN trust Greg Windmiller 100%. I trust him completely.... And in turn, he makes sure life is interesting . I also like to bust his balls when I get the chance. But he has my complete trust. If he says it was not GK, then it was not GK.... Just don't trust him if he asks if his finger smells funny. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

A worse idea is blowing right past your deployment altitude. And I find this to be funny: BUT: So...... looking at an alti will cause a body distortion and change your heading (and therefore is bad)... But rolling over is a good idea with no issues? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Mike Elliot is no longer active on the GK tandem team.... The gear was not GK (even if the jump suits were). So, I tend to think this was not a GK event. Of course, Greg W said it was not.... But you can't really trust him, trust me

I have done 22 packing for myself demo training. I have done 20 team training with packers. Normally, it is 12-14 when I start to notice a decrease in performance... which means I actually start decreasing around jump 10-12 "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

OK, but this jumper was not jumping a camera. He did a short freefall into a field that was bigger than his home DZ. Apples and oranges. The guy did a jump into a new landing area that was larger than many DZ's and bigger than the landing area at his DZ... (And no aircraft taking off, landing, and taxiing.) If this jumper had jumped into a new DZ and had his family watching the landing... What would have been different? And this is a jump that happens many times a year. The rules for demos are mainly to protect the spectators, not the jumpers. To prevent things like the demo jumper years ago that knocked a baby out of the arms if it's mother and causing the fall that killed the child. Due to the fact that the landing area is BIGGER, with less traffic, and that the speedway was empty, that they had a very experienced jumper doing the video (safety guy)... I fail to see why anyone is getting pissed at this. It was no more dangerous than these types of jumps that happen every day around the US when a new jumper goes to a new DZ. Also, the jumper is not exactly 'normal' his job is to race a car infront of tens of thousands of fans at close to 200 MPH. IF the speedway had been full, then yeah, due to the risk to the SPECTATORS I'd be calling for someone's head. But having knowledge of the speedway and the jumpers home DZ... This really is not that bug of a deal. I can't help but wonder if some people are just upset because he got to do something they would not be allowed to do. At any rate... I see this as a total non-issue, so I am done here. If you have first hand exp jumping into this speedway and feel this was dangerous... I'll gladly discuss this further. If not, then it is kinda silly to continue and I am done. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Again, you clearly are just trying to be argumentative. I am not trying to justify anything. I have no relationship to NASCAR or the driver that did the jump. What I am is a guy with a PRO rating with several hundred jumps at DeLand AND a few jumps into the 'demo' location. I know both landing areas and can say from experience that the speedway is bigger. Being PRO rated, an AFF I, and with experience at BOTH locations, I think I am qualified to have an opinion on the level of danger of landing at either location. Have you landed at the speedway in question? Having jumped at BOTH locations, I think that I am qualified to have an opinion on the level of risk of landing at either location. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Not really, the USPA has a requirement of 200 jumps to JUMP a camera, not to be videoed on a jump. Dont forget we often have AFF first jump students getting video. And people seem to just be ignoring that the area he landed in is MUCh bigger than the experienced landing area at his home DZ. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Your comparison is so wrong it is silly. Mine is a guy landing in a large (maybe larger) but different landing area. Yours is putting a guy under a much higher performance canopy. Your desire to be argumentative here has trumped your logic. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

No, and most people that know me know I tend to side on the safe side in most cases... Plus I said he looked a little stupid on landing. Still, it seems some are pissed because they would not have been allowed to do it. Looking at it from a purely risk assessment angle... The danger was not much, if at all, more dangerous than a 70 jump jumper doing a solo at a new DZ with a big landing area. And for the risk factor of this jump, 70 jumps was not a super stretch for a decently heads up jumper. That does not mean it was a good idea, but that landing area is big enough that I feel I could put a L2 AFF student in there... Again, not saying that would be a good idea either... Just saying the landing area was clearly big enough and the risk would not be , IMO, 'insane'. Yes, I'd he had died it would have been terrible... But if he had had 7k jumps it would not have been any better. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yes, but the safe landing area at the track would be like landing in ALL of Perris's landing area, not just the stripe. The point being that while it was not a great idea... It was not much more dangerous than a jump at a new DZ for a guy with 70 jumps. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

That landing area was bigger than quite a few DZ's "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

What he said. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Stats do not back your opinion. Stats do not back your claim. Currently, it is open canopy accidents. Having done both, I have to disagree. The "safest" in both worlds would be a static line into the middle of an open field. skydiving would not have an object you have to avoid (that you just jumped off of). skydiving would give you TWO parachutes. skydiving would give you much more time to figure out a problem. skydiving would give you much more time flying a canopy. skydiving would not be a few second canopy ride into a congested landing area. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

The min requirements to fly jumpers is a private ticket. To do it for hire you do need a commercial rating. So, we can just assume that the pilot had at least a commercial rating, unless you can prove otherwise. A NOTAM also has to be filed... Unless you can prove it was not filed then it still is not illegal. The rules for a demo jump do not apply to an alternate landing are if it is not "primarily for the benefit of spectators". Spectators means present, not online viewing, not broadcast viewers. I don't know why you are so upset with this... But call the FAA and USPA and file a complaint if you are that upset. I think you are going to find that nothing wrong happened. It was not done well... and the guy looked like a dufus balling himself up on landing... But that does not mean it is illegal. Also, be careful what you wish for... If having a few people standing around made this a demo... Do you really want the USPA and the FAA getting involved into your buddies jumping into a party on someones land? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

"principally for the benefit of spectators" is how the definition "Demo" reads. There were no "spectators" there was only support crew. If this had been into the field with it packed with fans... I would agree. As it was, it was a jump onto private property with permission of the land owner. I have a PRO rating, and was on a military demo team... I do understand a bit what is and what is not considered a demo. This was a promotion, but it was not a demo. And yes, it was not even a good promotion since he ate it on landing. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Good question... I'd go with "no" since they were not present. The demo rules are there to protect the spectators.... Case in point the guy who knocked a baby out of the arms of it's mother on landing and (i think) killed the baby. There is no doubt that this was "advertising" or "promotion".... Just that it was/was not a "demo". Don't get me wrong... I don't think it was smart, but I don't think it was terribly stupid either. His performance didn't really help skydiving since he biffed. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Then you were not around for the Shayna Richardson saga. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=1989936;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25; "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334