Ron

Nope still stupid. Maybe. But the canopy will react slower so maybe not...I doubt you think that you can't handle your 120 at 1.67, but how would you feel under a 69 at 2.9? I bet you would notice the difference. Just as there is a difference between a 150 and a 120. And if you do crash under a 190 or 210 you will do much less damage at around a 1 to 1 WL than at a 1.67 WL. Under which canopy would you rather hit under? A 1.6 Stiletto, or a 190 Stiletto? Plus due to the slower flight of the 190, and the recovery arc...You may not even hit. Yep and under every BSR and rule I have sugested if you could PROVE you can fly at a higher WL you would be allowed...If you can't pass the test, then you have to stay within the chart. So the chart would be for those that are unwilling to get that instruction, and be able to put it into practice. We don't test peoples skills and let them skip levels of AFF....I didn't show up at the DZ where I did SL and they didn't look at my history of flying (knowledge or air and flight), martial arts(knowledge of what my body is doing) and say...Well lets just skip the Static lines and put you on Freefall. Again if the person is truely gifted (and how many skydivers don't think they are?) Then they should be able to pass a well thought out canopy flight test right? And if they can then they can fly at a higher WL than the chart says. Again, if they really are "The Shiznit" under canopy, then they could test out. Well you were lucky to have not only the people who cared, but who also knew what they were doing...Not every DZ has a swoop god. Yes, there are some DZ's where people THINK they are swoop gods...But thats not the same. And mentoring is sometimes not letting people do what they want. But also a large number of people don't want to listen to you when you give advice...Look at the incident reports many of the dead were warned and talked to...They didn't listen. So insted of asking me why I can't mentor (which I do)...Ask yourself why some folks don't listen to people when they do. Agin look at the incident reports..Most of the dead canopy pilots where talked to..They didn't listen. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You don't need a guide to know that 230 pounds under a 105 with 200 jumps is not a good idea. Repeat after me: "Sorry Bob, you will not jump that canopy here" Easy as pie really. But my point is that I agree with this chart, and I bet we will see many more DZ's get one until the USPA adopts one. But (and I have not seen the chart) most rules should not have jokes on them or in them. It clouds the issue. Where is this DZ anyway? I will gladly jump there. They are taking steps to insure the saftey of the sport. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Very well said. We here tried to get something like this done, but the majority of people opposed it. Some just because it limits personal freedom. But I don't hear them bitching about having to take a skydiving course insted of just straping a chute on and going, or having pull altitudes. The reason they don't bitch is it has been that way for so long that they don't know any other way. The simple fact is that the new student on the DZ will never know his personal freedom is being stepped on. He will not know any better. Just like todays students can't imaging the days when you didn't need a course, and the SIM suggested that SOMEONE on the load have an altimeter. Most yelled about it because it would not let them get the toy they wanted....But there are plenty of examples where that is a good thing. Alcohol, Tobacco, Driving, guns all come to mind here in the US. These have limits based on experience (Years alive). And they seem to work well. I am in favor of allowing an advanced student to pass a test and be allowed to downsize faster than the norm. But it would have to be a test, not just taking a class. Without passing the test they would have to earn experience through raw jumps and the school of hard knocks. While raw jump numbers are not a perfect way to guage skill...The simple fact is that 99% of the time it works. My real point is that like it or not it is comming. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Come over to the "Bomb squad" area.... Marc will be there as well as HeatherB Towerrat, and myself... "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Stick with S/L. There is nothing wrong with AFF. There are several advantages: Instant feedback during your performance. Longer FF time to practice. You can learn really fast. I have known people to come out and in less than a week have 20-30 jumps. However most of these folks don't know how to pack, and could not spot for the airport much less the DZ. But you will learn to spot better with S/L. Chances are you will really know how to pack. You will not be afraid of low exits that you might have to do in an emergancy. You can still jump if it is overcast at 4 grand. And after 50 jumps no one will be able to tell the difference between the S/L guys and the AFF guys freefall skills. For those that did learn AFF...Just like Tom said expand your world. Go to a Cessna DZ and spend some time learning to spot and packing. Hell do it just to meet new people. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Angela, The simple fact is that there has to be some restrictions in this sport for the saftey of the sport and the people in it.. A WL restriction is a natural progression of the sport...It might go away after a more safe attitude about canopy flight takes hold. right now we have guys with 100 jumps trying to get Eliptical that is highly loaded. The same thing happened with pull altitudes...Back in the 60's you pulled where you thought you could survive. Low pulls killed a large number of people. Then some DZ's came out with minimum pull altitudes. People fought them, hated them, threatend to go to other DZ's....Then the BSR's came out and gave minumum pull altitudes. Some ignored them, and some still do. Now a large number of people think that they are to low and should be raised. Funny huh? Well the same thing is going to happen with canopies. When these came out you had to be very experienced to get them....After a few years the manufactors restrictions were relaxed or removed, and the used market made it so a guy could get what he wanted, but it would be used. MANY people died. Now some DZ's are saying that you can't jump X WL till you have Y jumps (The same thing that happened with pull altitudes. X altitude when you get Y jumps). People are going to bitch about it, some are going to break them...But at some point it will be the norm just like Pull altitudes. Then the attitude will change and people will agree with them, and the education will be better. And they will not be needed anymore. Like it or not it will happen , and infact is happening. Not everyone jumps in FL, CA, or other states that have full time DZ's with people like Scott Miller standing around. When I started the guy with the most jumps at my DZ had 1500 and had been skydiving 20 years. To not have these kind of canopy rules would be like saying it would be ok to let someone just put on a rig and jump if they want...Its legal, but not smart or safe. And yes, it has been done. I don't hear many people bitching about AAD's for students. Pull Altitudes, wind limits ect...But when these things came out there were people bitching about them. Like it or not a reasonable amount of regulation is good for the sport. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Well I got drunk dialed from Lisa on Saturday...now I know the source of my phone number being out there.....I had a Bday party at my parents I had to be at (mine)...And work issues on Sunday....But I will try to make the next DZ.com boogie..(I need to do more boogies this year. Well Im glad everyone had fun, and next time you can count me in. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I used to live,eat,sleep, shit, skydiving. I started in Ark. back in 1993 I have done 250-500 jumps every year since I have been in the sport.... To the point of moving to FL. when I could not jump enough in Memphis, moving on to the DZ, and even trying to join the Army team. However in the last year I have cut way back. Maybe 200 jumps this year. I have other activities that quite honestly are more fun after 10 years in the sport. I really have been thinking of just quiting, but after 10 years and 3,000 jumps...It is now something I just do...I don't really put any energy into it, I am not trying really anything new. I still do 4 way when I can, but its just not important to me anymore. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

So 4way guys are all pussies? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I have been out to Perris several times...And on 3 occasions there were not enough people to fly..So I sat on the ground. I guess that makes Perris a "Backwards DZ" Huh? You only went out to that other DZ once and called it "backwards" I sat at Perris 3 different times. Still I didn't cry about it. Its called skydiving. Not everything should be handed to you on a silver platter. And I bet you will be scared shitless the first time you have to bale out at 3 grand with an engine out....Otter babies always do. You have so much to learn, yet you act like a skygod now at 100 jumps. Thats why you are getting flack. Dissing a DZ since it does not have "Proper" bathrooms....What a cry baby! DZ's in the "stix" as you say make more skydivers, and skydives than Perris ever will. You are the reason that people quit. Big ego, with very little skill but you scream the loudest, and cry at everything that does not go your way. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I have done it both ways....But yours might be better. The other did work for me however.. In the end I am sure there are about a hunderd different ways..and I am no expert on Cessnas. Keep the tips comming "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Ya gotta love RWS....And I agree 100% with this. And there HAVE been fatalities due to RSL's cool toys should NEVER take the place of training. Man I love RWS!!! "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Well its been about a year since I jumped a cessna....And it was just a hop n pop....Its been 7 years since I chunked anything...So we will go with your idea. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Undo the chest strap before you gt to the water, and loosen the leg straps. Don't cutaway just swim up stream, or up wind under water for a few feet. Also ditch weight vests, helmets shoes...ect. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Practice on a bed.....Alot. Get all the thinking done before your next skydive. That way you will not waste time in freefall. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

everyone here knows I am one of the biggest "canopy Nazi's" out there... However I would not say perfectly fly that canopy. I can't perfectly fly my ST107 and I have 2,000 jumps on it. You do need to have the basics damn near perfect, but not the whole canopy. This is why I like the "get your PRO test" If a guy can land a canopy 10 times out of 10 attempts standing in a 30 foot circle...He knows enough about that canopy..If not, I think its clear he still has more to learn. But in this case he does not handle the speed well, so why downsize? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

4 way exit from a Cessna. One guy goes out and holds onto thestrut with both his arms..He stands on the wheel with his left leg and trails the right. One person goes and sits backwards in the V where the strut meets the fusalage. He grabs the first guys chest strap. The guy giving the count is in the center across from the guy in the V. He has the guy on his rights leg strap, and he hold himself on the plane with the guy in the V's cheststrap. The guy at the door either tries to squease out, or he just gets his legs out and sits on the door. He has the guy giving the count's arm...Now if he is sitting he also takes the guys in the V's arm...If he is out he turns down wind and lets the guy in the V take his inner leg....Both work, the inside guy being out with the V guy holding his leg is more solid, but that guy needs to be small, and this is the hardest slot. The guy in the V needs to arch like hell for a second or two as he gets pulled out of the V. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

The Hornet is more like a Sabre 2 than like a Stiletto. A good canopy, but if this person can't really fly it he really should not get a Vengence OR a Stiletto...He should learn to fly it first. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

If you are not trolling....Which could happen here. I would let him read about all the dead folks that thought they could handle a downsize....Hell, there was just one last week. It seems clear that he does not know how to fly his big canopy if he can't use his front risers without screwing up.....What do risers do? They increase the landing speed...What does downsizing do? Same damn thing. So now he wants to go to a canopy that he has shown he can't handle the speed of? Makes no damn sense to me. Sounds like another person who is letting ego, not skill pick his canopy....The problem is that is often fatal, or atleast hurts a lot. Search this site, and print out the fatalites....of course he will not read them...none of them think it could happen to them. A canopy control course is a good idea....A canopy control course on his old canopy is a better idea. If he will not listen, ask him to: 1. make sure his will is up to date. 2. make sure he has medical coverage. 3. He should tell his family that he loves them. 4. Make him write a note saying that he knows that this canopy is advanced, and that he chooses it of his own free will. And that he holds no one resposable for his choice but himself. 5. Have him place this in his reserve pocket "When I hook this thing in please rinse off the blood, and then send it to Ron Hill c/o Skydive City Zhills Fl." (I can always use more gear). Then try praying. Im kinda sick of hearing the sound of bodies hitting under good canopies. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

The stairstep diamond is a very good exit....And most understand this one. However for bullet proof...(Now that I said it it will funnel from now on) Is to take 4 folks. Have the front hold on to the plane with his right hand and present to the relative wind. I would be behind him and use my left hand to grab his right legstrap. This will allow me to push him up if I have to. The front diver takes the front floaters right arm in an open accordian grip with his right arm. The rear diver takes my right arm in an open accordian grip With his right arm. The Front diver has the Rear diver with his left hand on the rear divers legstrap. So basicly you have everyone in a boxed open accordian with 2 leg strap grips. The floaters are facing into the realative wind, and the divers are facing the back of the plane. A very solid exit and this is just the same type of standard exit for 8 way chunks... "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

When organizing I normaly chunk something...a 3 or 4way to give everyone a good target, not a bunch of people everywhere. I am normally in that chunk so I make it stay on heading. I find it is the best of both worlds....I chunk a round or an opposing diamond. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

If ya want ot go to Zhills...I might be able to arange a ride....If you plan on flying out of TPA...I can easily arange that (I work at the TPA airport) "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Actually 5 is not that big of a deal....As long as you know about it and drill the hell out of it. 5 is just really an addition to doing new things....But I always tell folks not to add more than one new thing at a time. But if you add 5 and any of the others...well it becomes stupid. But jumping while sick still ranks as the #1 stupid thing for the weekend. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Like I said it really didn't bother me that much...But the thing is I did know that I was not doing anything that was my normal type of skydive....If I didn't know, and didn't take the time to run a bunch of situations in my head on the ride up...Well if something had gone bad, it might have gotten VERY bad. I can just imagine the sinus pain being really bad...And me wanting to deploy. The pain could have made it so I didn't think very well, and the PUD could have made it hard for me to pull while I was in pain. Add in the cool fact that my reserve was not my favorite metal handle....and that could have made the reserve pull interesting. The pain was bad...but managable, and its not the first time I have jumped with a sinus issue...so I knew what to expect. But I have seen some people really freak out over something small...I saw on guy look down and freeze at 7 grand. He just looked down and started orbiting around a bit. When we landed he looked white as a ghost. He saw a cloud below us and just freaked out. I have seen others freak out from having a leg strap come undone. But knowing all of this made it so I could handle the situations...So like I said...not very smart, but not uber dangerous either. In fact I was ready for everything to go wrong...and almost everything did! I even had my left leg strap come out on this one...Hell, other than the malfunction and camera main entaglement I imagined, almost every damn thing I thought of did happen. Yeah but not nearly the field day if I had needed an RSL....Now if I had an AAD fire and just ignored it...well that would be a flame fest! But this actually shows you don't need any cool toys if you can think, and plan out all possible outcomes. Nah, I just want people to learn from my mistakes so they don't have to learn them on their own. Hell Im the first guy to tell people when I screw up. I want people to learn. Anyway the only really dumb thing I did was get back on the plane when I knew it was going to hurt....All the gear crap was fine, I knew all the differences and drilled them into my head on the ride up...But I did risk injury when I got back on that plane....That was not smart and does show an error in my thinking. As for the flame fest....I did stop by the store and get some marshmellos so I can make smores when the flames start. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Many years ago I had a very good, and much more experienced buddy ask me this one question: "What do you think is the #1 cause of people dying in skydiving?" It sounded really simple I told him sudden impact trauma. He said yes, but what *caused* the SIT? I said Something that sounded good to me, but was wrong. Then he told me the answer: People trying new things. He then said that when something goes wrong they don't know how to handle it since they are not experienced. He brought up many examples of this: A guy he knew that got killed jumping his sons GI Joe doll when the dolls canopy got tangled with his pilot chute. A bunch of examples of guys bouncing due to jumping cameras (Which I almost did 100 jumps later)... Guys jumping Demo gear, Changing from ROL to BOC. The list goes on. I was reminded of this due to this weekend....If you are looking for an accident report you might as well stop reading now....I lived. A buddy of mine asked me if I would video his 4way team this weekend. 1. I have around 3,000 jumps, but less than 50 are video even though I do have a camera setup. Now 50 jumps is NOTHING. So lets not say I was nervious...just *Really* aware. The problem started with me doing something that I don't have a lot of experience...Now lets add in the other cool stuff: 2. I was sick. In fact I didn't jump last weekend since I had some sinus "crud" (thats the technical term BTW). I really was not at 100%, but I didn't want to let my buddy down, and frankly its fun to do new things. It was simple I check all my gear to make sure I was not going to bounce and got on the plane. The ride up I felt great (Side note...Its the ride down that hurts BTW). On the exit they had a little timing issue and one guy is a little off, but that just gives me time to peal and fly to my slot. The pressure starts to build in my sinus cavity... They start turning points..The pressure is building in my head, and now its a little bit painful. They really start to go pretty good...Its a good group of skydivers. An organizer, Sunpaths owner, and two really good 4 way guys from non US National teams. So its kinda fun me being a 4way guy to just watch the action from above....Even with the visual distraction the pain is starting to become worse...Its not "OH GOOD GOD GET THAT WHITE HOT ICEPICK OUT FROM INSIDE MY HEAD!" painful....But I am now very aware that it could get worse. I am now thinking if I can get another video guy for them...since I should not go again. Now they brake off and I get to deploy..Did you know that the last 1,000 feet is the worst? Still the pain was managable. #3. In a rush. We land a little off, so by the time we get back we are on a 5 min call. I yell to my buddy to ask if he can take over and just use my gear...But he is not packed and he can't. #4. So my dumb ass decides that I will do one more, and I will let him take over when I land. I should have called it right here. But hey I have 3,000 jumps, and I was not in pain. Plus I don't want to let my friends down. #5. We are doing a back to back, so I have to use a second rig....But it's not even MY second rig I borrowed one from a packer. Oh yeah its also a pullout and it does not have a CYPRES. So lets just recap my stupidity: 1. Doing something I am not experienced at. 2. While sick. 3. being rushed. 4. Not stopping when I had the chance knowing I was not at 100%. And risking injury. 5. Borrowed a rig that had a different deployment system (That I had only jumped three times ever), A pillow reserve handle (I like metal handles) And no AAD even though I don't require one to jump.... But hell with all this going on it could not hurt. But the show must go on right? Well we start to climb to altitude...Then it hits me...Hey dude this is a recipe for disaster! So I *really* start thinking about the possible issues. Now we get to add in that we didn't get altitude, and I have to rush getting my helmet on. We leave the plane....The pressure starts to build...then stops. I notice that I seem to be discharging a good bit of snot from my nose....Cool, I will be cleared out!...Then I notice the blood on my goggles...Damn thats not cool. The rest of the dive is not important...I did great camera work and they team flew like Airspeed. (OK maybe not). When I landed...I got an instant headache and until today I have been blowing blood out of my nose all weekend. The lesson is simple. Don't do more than one new thing at a time. And when its not right, don't do it at all. But it could have been bad. It does not really bother me, but it is still a good lesson and I thought I would throw it out for people to nitpick and ignore. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334