Ron

I find it interesting when you find information that is aganist your stance on things you change the topic... Can you even admit that some good things are happening in Iraq? I doubt it. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And you keep passing right over the fact that the guy was just trying TO KILL ALL OF THEM. And you keep passing right over the simple fact that it is not easy to go from Rambo to Mother Terasa when you are 20 and in a live and die situation. What is YOUR military exp? I have served in the US Army in the Infantry....I know what I was trained to do, and I also have studied what REALLY happens in a battle...Have you? Or are you simply using CNN and John Wane movies to make these choices? While I was in the Military, I was taught to kill my enemy...Before he killed me. I WAS not taught to disarm, I was not taught to graze the enemy. I was taught, trained, drilled, and encouraged to KILL them. Here it is in English... When a young person is enguaged in a life or death, kill or be killed situation. It is not easy to change from "Trained Killer" to Red Cross Voulenteer. Also, after seeing a few of your buddies killed, burned, mutilated, drug through the streets, hung up and pelted with rocks....You tend to want to kill the guys that did it...Now, no matter how well trained you are...You are still 20, imature, well armed pissed off, and scared for your life. Again...what is your military training? Rented Delta force five times? I was trained to kill people unless it was a hostage rescue mission. No it was wrong because it was wrong....The guards were in no danger of being killed, they were not still high from a firefight...The guards were wrong. Now, I don't really care that much to be honest...Saddam was doing worse, and these guys were PRISONERS...They did bad things, they were bad people. When some prisoner on death row here in the states gets shanked in the prison yard...I don't care either. Maybe its cause I think they deserve it. Still the guards were wrong. They were there to contain, and protect them...Even if they were bad people. And for that the guards will pay.... Funny thing is I didn't see the world get pissed when SH put people into meat grinders...But they sure did get pisses when some stupid E4 gets her picture taken with a body... Thats pretty fucking funny. I'd understand it. Something you don't seem to be able to do...I also understand 9/11 and them killing Burg. 9/11 they were attaking us for a number of things...Supporting Israel, invading the homeland, immorality ect. Burg...well he was an idiot. He had an American passport with a stamp from Israel. He went into a war zone and some say tried to play spy.....That does not make either action OK...But I do understand them. Something you don't seem to be able to do. I suggest you rent something else...Next time you want to train up your military skills...Don't rent Delta force....Get Stripes. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Style would work easy enough...The audience can relate to "Well you have to do this then this, then this, and it is timed to see how fast you can do it." The Accuracy would work well also..."You see you land on this quarter sized target." Both are easy to understand... Freeflying is not so easy...In fact some times there is a hard time judging it....So it is even harder to understand the scoring. Swooping is the same thing....I did a demo this weekend, and I did a cool down wind hook turn (BIG ass field)...I had people comment on how I looked out of control....They didn't understand the idea...However two others landed straight in...(Both with 500 jumps, one didn't stand it up) Some thought they did better since they were slower. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Then it would be BASE, not skydiving. And the title of this thread is OLYMPIC SKYDIVING..Not BASE. And I presented why the IPc does not want to include skydiving. People have been trying for years and the people in this sport need to just come to grips that this is not a popular sport..Nor will it be. And in my opinion it should not be. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Did I miss something? Did people in the Twin towers have weapons and were firing on the hijackers? Stupid comparison Bill. I understand 9/11....I would not be pissed. That does not mean that it was OK. But in their eyes it was OK. That difference of opinion will lead to many more dying. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

An injured man that seconds before was trying to kill all of them. Don't forget that. Its not like he was out for a stroll and they opened fire on him. How do you know what was neccissary? Where you there? Do you know he had no grenades of explosives on him? Do you know if he had a pistol...Cause I can't tell any of that from the video. How can you be so sure it was safe? I see a bunch of guys that lived through a firefight being glad to be alive...I doubt any of them treated it like a game. And you formed your "expert" opinion on what? An edited video clip from a news source? People like you don't lead the way, but they sure do slam the guys that do. "Chairborne Rangers...We don't lead the way, but we will tell you how it could have been done better, later, while we drink an ice cold coke at the computer!!!" There are two types of people...Those that do the dirty hard work...And Arm chair experts that pick on them. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1097814#1097814 "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

No other Olympic sport uses powered vehicals as part of the event. Also, you don't want to change the sport just to make it popular....You lose that battle every time. What happens is you end up with a sport that is nothing like what it was....And you still don't have any popularity. When was the last time you cared who won the local track event in your state? Can you even tell me when the last event was? Getting skydiving into the Olympics is not gonna happen anytime soon. And I don't think it should be a focus. It will be nothing like the sport we know it, and it will not make it more popular... Style and Acc have the best chance at being Olympic events. Easy to understand, and the landings are easy to watch. But Freeflying and RW have very little chance. They already tried to take the exit out of the 4way event. Had everyone launch a star then start...Another idea was to just have each team perform the sequence once and it was timed. So you would launch a star, then when you moved or after 10 seconds the clock would start and you had 6 or so points to turn. Nothing like 4way RW now. also as for a burner not being a motor: Motor n. 1. Something, such as a machine or an engine, that produces or imparts motion. 2. A device that converts any form of energy into mechanical energy, especially an internal-combustion engine or an arrangement of coils and magnets that converts electric current into mechanical power. adj. 1. Causing or producing motion: motor power. So a burner WOULD be a motor. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

The difference is they COULD walk...We CAN'T skydive without an aircraft. Again its the IPC's hangup...I personally think that skydiving is an incredably boring sport to watch unless you do it. Just put on a video in a room full of whuffos...They will watch at first, then after its just the same stuff over and over...They will lose interest. There is not a market for skydiving as a spectator sport...Just check out the X games. They took out skysurf, and went with things like skatebording...Something 12 year olds can do. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

It does not have a motor. And thats the IPC issue. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Nonya:1:0 Nonya Buisness 1 jump, Demo into a friends Bday party. 0 alcohol...I was the DD. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

72 to get starsky and hutch "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I ordered my first rig when I had 7 jumps. I jumped it for the first time on jump #12 (The first weekend I got it). Talon with a Swift + reserve and a Raven II main. No RSL, No AAD. They did however make me wear a helmet. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

But increadably boring to watch...Its like BASE jumping...I have never been able to watch more then 5 min's of BASE video. The same thing over and over...It gets old. More people can understand playing cards...Not many can understand FF. To really get into it? Yes. To see some pretty pictures, No. But the sport will not grow unless people want to buy "Airspeed" jerseys and hats. There is a saying in the car buisness.."What wins on Sunday, sells on Monday". Comercialism is what makes sports big. For people to get excited in a sport they need to understand what is going on, and be able to relate to it. Case in point...I watched the Hockey game last night...I don't know much about hockey. But I did play soccer in high school, and I have been Ice skateing. So I could understand the goal of putting the puck past the goalie into the net...I also knew that Ice skateing can be hard. So I can also understand figure skateing. Now take aerobatics...I am a pilot, so I can really get into aerobatic competitons...Most people will not watch a competition. Watching the same types of planes do the same thing over and over...However they will watch an airshow...But it is a completley different thing. People will look at it if it is interesting looking, but they have to be able to relate to really get into watching it. The most popular sports are easy to try. NASCAR, CART, Indy, Drag racing...Well most people drive so they can relate. Football, Soccer, Baseball, Basketball....Who has not thrown, kicked, or hit a ball or played a few sandlot games? Who watches Skateboard competions? 30-40 year old males, or 10-20 Y/O's? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You can climb a hill to ski down it...We HAVE to use a plane to skydive. Besides its not my hangup...It's the IOC's. Plus its not really a spectator sport...And most people have no reference to it...People understand running since they have run, people understand swimming since they have gone swimming, people can understand Ice hockey, even badmitton....People can't understand skydiving. And that is why skydiving will never be a popular sport. People can't understand it, and its to expensive for people to be able to run to Walmart and experience it like little johnny can with a skateboard, or a bike. Hell, even IN skydiving most people could not care who is competing and whinning, why should Joe Public care if we don't? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Another reason is that no other olympic event uses vehicals.....We do. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Or it could cause the guy still in the truck to fire an RPG and kill you. Fact is we don't know what the Helicopter crew did know...And sitting at our desks its easy to second guess them since we are in no risk of being killed. We have the luxury of not being in a life or death situation. One story said that ground backup was better than 30 min away....Its not a good idea to hover over a war zone in a 30 million dollar helicopter for 30 min....That kind of target will attract all kinds of guys with RPG's. Thats a sure way to get your ticket punched. Yep, you think you could have done better? You think you could be 19 years old in a fire fight and watch your buddies get hit, know buddies that are dead...And as soon as this guy gets hit suddenly turn from Rambo to Mother Teresa????? I'm not so sure I could, and if you think you could you are either a PRO soldier, or sick. Most 19 year olds are not Pro's....Most 30 year olds are not Pro's. And they were whooping and hollering to be alive....You ever been in that situation? I bet after your first Mal you will not be able to shut up about it. Which also goes to show the amount of adrenaline that they had pumping in them. Completely understandable. But I guess you are better than that? Im not so sure I would be I was taught to destroy the enemy.....Not incapacitate them...Another reason that US soldiers are a poor choice for a police force. You seem to think that you have the resolve of a professional killer....Well maybe you do, I doubt it, but maybe you do...Most don't. Was it OK to kill that guy? Well again we don't know the WHOLE story do we? We only have a heavly edited clip....Im not about to make that call off of a clip from CNN. You want to fell free to jump to a choice based off of half of the information...I think its stupid, but feel free... If it is a case of them just killing an innocent man...Then hey were wrong... It is completley understandable in my opinion...I would not tell them to do it, but I do understand it. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

No, It is a stupid job to give a bunch of 19 year olds that are well armed and taught to kill. However, it's not like this is a "normal" police job. And quite frankly it seems that they are the only choice right now. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Anything is possible...But given the choice of listening to some guy with 10,000 jumps opinion, or some guy with 100...Well I'm gonna listen to the guy with 10,000...As Quade pointed out many that you can't always trust a paid person...So while I may listen to the guy with 10,000 jumps...Im not going to automaticly buy the same gear he endorses...But I'm sure not going to make my choices off of some guy with 100 jumps opinions. He really knows nothing compared to the guy with 10,000 jumps, even if they guy with 10,000 jumps has an agenda. The same thing for political parties....While the Dems or Repubs might have good things to say....Most times its going to be the normal part line. I do find it funny that people confuse that the right to have an opinion, and the value of that opinion are the same. A guy with no or little expereince does NOT have the same validity as a guy with much more experience. You should also understand that just cause you don't agree with the experienced guy, or like his delivery...It does not make his opinion less valid or untrue. Like I said....Feel free to express an opinion...But understand no one has to care about your opinion, and if you don't have a clue of what you are talking about....Don't expect people to listen. Another poster in this thread summed up the second video nicely...You can expect a trooper who is under fire to go from killer to pacifist just cause the guy that was just trying to kill you got hit. Real life does not work that way. Personal example...Today I just did a Demo for a friends Bday party. Big open field (So big that airplanes have landed there.) I was on a professional Demo team for three years. Have over 3,000 jumps. Performed on well over 100 live demos, and had over 600 practice jumps for demos. After I landed today...I was still nervious. That kid in the video I bet was scarred shitless. I doubt you ever get used to someone shooting at you and trying to kill you. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

The only thing I'm gonna say is this. I think that no matter what the forum is....You should know something about the subect before you judge it...don't you agree? I mean I know squat about playing guitar, so I don't talk about playing the guitar. I don't freefly, so I don't give freefly advice...I have been in the military (82d Airborne Infantry) So, I DO know something about US ROE and US troopers. The funny thing about this forum (Which I must admit is the only one I am on) is that it does not matter what the subject is...Everyone thinks their opinion should be considered as equal to everyone elses...This is the only place where a guy with no Military Exp...(I don't know if you have any...do you?) Thinks that his take on a military operation should be as valuable as a guy with 20+ years...The same thing is done on here with skydiving..A guy with 100 jumps thinks his opinion should carry the same weight as a guy with 10,000 jumps....Thats just not true. You have the right to an opinion, but the source should be considered. I would not take skydiving advice from a guy with 10 jumps, tactical advice from a guy that has never stacked on a room, or political advice from a 18 year old with stars in his eyes. I don't know how much of this applies to you, but it is an epidemic on here...People with very little exp thinking their experience is equal to everyone elses.... Its just not true. From your take on the events it seems to me that you have never been in the military...Otherwise you would understand that while shooting a wounded man is wrong....Most likley you would do it anyway unless he had intel you needed...Its human nature. But please, tell me...what military exp do you have? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Well that would be your right now wouldn't it? I think many democrats ARE finger pointers...And the TOP Dem right now sure as hell did whatever he could to blame someone else for something he did didn't he? If I told you that a good number of guys named "Bubba" are rednecks....Well I'd be correct right? Call a spade a spade. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

In the context of war I am not going to second guess the guys who are in the battle. When I saw the "Pop up Video" of the helicopter attack...And read what the "Pop up's" said...Yep, I got a little angry...Then Quade posted the TRUE story. That it was an arms deal. Well that changes things huh? If it was just an attack on some farmers it was pretty sick.....If it was an attack on an illegal arms deal...Good for them, they got what they deserve. Since they DID get permission to fire, I'm betting it was an illegal arms deal...But funny how the delivery of the story can make the story swing another way huh? As for the second video....Well there was some very clear edits there as well. And no, I don't feel the slightest bad about killing a guy that just seconds ago was trying to kill me, and my team. I would not condone just walking up to a guy that was just sitting there doing nothing, but I support the killing of a guy that just seconds ago was trying to end my life. For the record I didn't get outraged by the Iraqi's killing Burg either. I understand it, I understand the nature of warfare...Maybe you don't. You see you have two sides, and they are trying to kill each other. One side will kill you in your sleep, murder you family if they could, and will desecrate your body. The other side TRIES to use fair ROE. But that sometimes does not happen. As for the second video....If a guy is trying to kill me, and he gets hit and drops his weapon....Unless it is SAFE to capture him (and you don't know if it was safe in this case. Many times you can use wonded to lure people out to a kill zone) and he might have intel we need. I'm gonna drop him. When he fired on me, unless he surenders he is a threat. Guys have been wounded, and when you try to help them they blow you up with a grenade, or stab you. They fight dirty, and all you need to do is see them do that ONCE and you will not trust them. As for the glee at the marines...Well after a fire fight there is so much damn adrenialan in them...I don't doubt they were glad the fight was over...Like when you landed after your first jump...where you excited? Was that easy to control? What you don't see in the video was how long the battle was, and how bad it was. Since he is wounded at the start of the video, you don't know what he was doing before...If he had just been aiming an RPG at the wall of troops and he was hit before he could fire...Well, if a guy just almost killed you, and you hit him, are you going to be able to stop firing as soon as he drops? I doubt it... Can you see the other side? If a guy was trying to KILL you, and KILL your buddies. And you knew damn good and well that THEY show no mercy and if they could they would not only kill you, but DRAG your body through the street, BURN it, CUT it up, and HANG it up for people to throw rocks at....What would you do to the guy that was just trying to KILL you? I'd kill him. Edit to add: You talk about me Attacking you.... Well lets look at it. I do admire how a guy that never has been in the military or god forbid in a battle can sit back and make judgment calls on guys that WERE under fire...Thats like listening to whuffos talk about skydiving and listening to them as experts. The US has done so many good things...But I don't hear you talk about them....WW2 was agreat example, with out the US you would be speaking germain. I don't hear you bitching about the US in WWII. You are only looking at ONE side, and you have no idea how to see the other side...Or for that matter I don't think you want to see the other side. You seemed to totaly blow over this statment of mine. Seems to me you like bashing the US...You make comments based off of VERY little information...Information I might add that was CREATED with a spin. You don't seem to care about getting the other side of the story before you bash the US....Like Is aid I was pissed at the first video, but I didn't comment till I read Quades artical....THEN I made a comment. You didn't you went off half cocked. I don't see a personal attack in my showing you where you made a snap judgment on half of the story. _________________________________________ "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And I admire how you armchair rangers can talk about ROE. I also admire how you can turn on a country that more than once has gone above and beyond to save many other countries asses. I don't hear you bitching about the US in WWII. The simple fact is you will take whatever information YOU deem important. And YOU don't have a clue to the whole story, YOU are a perfect "chairborne ranger". As for American GI's that break ROE, or kill for fun...I'd fry them just as fast as I'd drop an Iraqi with a SAM. There is right, and there is wrong...Then there is your version which is what ever the US does is wrong. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

What you want me to NOT be charitable? I don't like the fact my tax money goes to some crackhead...I TRY to tell the United Way what programs my money goes to. But you completely glazed over my March of Dimes stuff, and Juvenile Diabetes Association. Just like you to ignore the whole post. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

My point is that sKerry fell down while snowbording, and blamed someone else for it...To the point of yelling at the guy and calling him stupid. The really funny thing is that sKerry fell down a bunch more with noone around him.... Then sKerry falls down off a bike...But a few weeks later Bush does also. Well sKerry slams bush for falling...TWO weeks after sKerry fell. sKerry blaimes other people when he can. sKerry sees it's ok to slam someone for something he did. Thats funny. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334