Ron

1. Stay out of the way and don't draw attention to yourself. 2. Un holster the weapon but not in a way to be noticed. 3. *If possible* draw a bead on the perp without him knowing and from cover or at least concealment 4. Do nothing unless the situation turns. Let him leave if he does not provoke violence. He shoots, tries to take a hostage, ect...Drop him. Do nothing unless there is evidence of it turning bad, AND you think that you can do something to prevent it. It's not your job to stop the crime or even protect anyone else. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

See here is the thing... We have some members of the gay community saying that sex without a condom is taboo. "Barebacking" is the "Fuck of Death" (BTW, Barebacking applies in the straight community as well...) But the highest segment of growth..AND the highest number of raw cases are in the gay community. So what does that mean? Are gays just giving "lip service" to the problem...Or is a small segment (maybe the folks on here) actually trying to make a difference...But they are a minority? See the numbers show that a small segment of the population has the highest rate and raw number... So please, what is the cause? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yeah Chicago is safe http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1505537#1505537 Jan-June 2002: 277 murders 914 criminal sexual assult 8,165 robberies 12,008 Agravated Assult and Batteries 11,343 burgleries 21,364 violent crimes. Source http://www.chicago-neighborhoods.net/crime_stats.php "know the city" "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

So who is to say your grouping is better? If the higest at risk groups are black females and gay males, why spend money on white upper-class males? No, I will not. It was easy for me to get condoms...And I lived in the bible belt. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You said nothing of CP. I wrote: There is nothing wrong with punishment when it is justified. You wrote And who are you to decide what is necessary? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You assume that anyone that has a gun goes out looking for trouble...thats silly and you know it. If it were true there would be a BUNCH more cases of shootouts involving CWP holders. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I know I take a risk...Its one I have to take. Simple...Take one to work and I'll get fired. I have to balance having a job with the small chance that a co-worker will go nuts...to get to my office you have to go through a metal detector and all your belongings have to be Xrayed...To work here you have to pass a 10 year background check, any violence on your record and you can't work here. Also we have the police department less than a mile away, Airport police, Customs, the FBI, and private security....I'm pretty safe at work. How many killings at a professional college have you heard of? See my classmates are all late 20's to 50's. I have found no cases where a shooter went to one of these...Also, I am not allowed to carry there according to the rules...One of the first things you have to abide by if you carry is the property owners wishes. The two places listed (actually I listed three...The DZ) I am not allowed to carry due to law, or property owners rules. I will not break the law just to carry. See gun laws only prevent people who would carry legally from carrying...A crazy would not care about the law. I am allowed to have a weapon in my home...So I do. It is to protect myself from a home invasion. IF I could carry at work and school I would, but it would not be legal, so I don't. Yes. I know my area, and the places in my city where I can go with a degree of safety. When traveling I don't know the area, and circumstances that I can't control (Flat tire, almost out of gas) might force me to be in an area I would not go to if I knew better or had another choice...If I have the choice I still don't go there...But you don't always have that choice. BS...I can think of a few reasons not to carry a gun. 1. You are not trained in the use of a firearm...If you are one of those that buys a gun for "protection" loads in and puts it into your sock drawer and never shoots it...Keeps it "in case". I'd rather you not have one. And I'd really rather someone like that not carry one. However if you are like Dave and train with it, or like me Ex-Military I don't have a problem. 2. You go someplace you don't need it. If I am going to my parents for dinner, or a friends for lunch I don't need to carry. I know the route and there is little risk of me being in a conflict from my house to another persons house. 3. You go someplace you are not allowed to carry by law. Such as my office, or my school. The problem is you will never admit that at time someone WITH a gun is a good thing..such as this case where one man saved lives. Can you even admit that there are times when a civilian with a weapon is a good thing? The problem comes for you, not me...I can admit there are times when I don't need one..And in those times I don't carry...Can you admit there are times when you might? In the very story that started this thread a guy with a CWP had a gun and did not use it...He made the choice to direct police to the criminal...So your theory that having a gun will make you use it is BS...Dave had a gun and did not fire it. The same could be said of AAD's...But I bet most have them. There are MUCH more cases of a guy without a license to carry shooting someone that a guy with a CWP...That is a fact you can not deny. Without a gun it could have been much worse...Did you read about the judges family in IL who were murdered? If they had a weapon that might not have been the case. We can play this game all day long. Just cause you have a gun does not mean you have to use it...Also in the case you talked about..They both had a sword. Still a deadly weapon..Why is a sword OK, but not a gun? Find me a case of this happening...For every case of this you find, I will find two where the guy took a bat or other heavy object and killed the guy. #1 cause of Domestic violence death...Blunt force trauma...Check it out. We would be a much safer society if we outlawed alcohol instead of guns. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Well I normally would never take on MORE work during a camp. In this case it is two females and they have been refered by a friend to me. I work VERY hard to get anyone refered to me taken care of....I once drove to the tunnel to coach for 15 min at the request of a DZ.commer. That being said.... Bring the pain.....Lets see....List of coaches Chromy...Hell that guy LIVES in the tunnel, good luck wearing him out. Steve Hamilton...Yeah, I see him having a problem Me....Well You *might* get me....I have only done about ~9 hours (Mojo camp, two SOCOM camps, and a couple of "play" sessions) since Jan 1...So you might be able to wear me out.... Wanna bet a beer? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

So its OK to sentance an innocent person to hard labor till they die, but not death? Why not work on only convicting the guilty parties rather than just throwing the innocent in jail for a life of hard labor... Innocent people being convicted is a SEPERATE issue. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

So the US is not civilized? Then why live here John? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

cheaper is not reasonable...Its just cheaper. He has provided nothing...This is an old debate and no side was able to prove a cost benefit. No one has proven that it is cheaper to keep them alive. Pnishment is NOT necessary? What do you want to do reward criminals? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I already have one side gig on Sunday I am also going to the tunnel Thursday... The tunnel is VERY full.... "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Varies by state. I don't. See prison should be a deterrent, punishment and an opportunity for those that can to be rehabilitated... For cases worthy of CP..I don't care about rehabilitation. They should be prevented from EVER getting out and be punished. Most times not getting out is not good enough. You have to define "reasonable"....I see CP as reasonable for capital crimes. I don't see spending money, time and effort to try and keep these guys alive and healthy as reasonable. Also any effort to rehabilitate them is also a waste since they should never be let out. There is nothing wrong with punishment when it is justified. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

More focus on education people WHY then need protecting rather than just handing it out. When I was in the Military on long weekends they would force us to take a condom before we left....Even me when I was married. It did not help any..Guys still got STD's (Bragg I believe was #2 of STD's in the Army)...Now once I had to take a guy down to the clinic so he could be "rodded off the range"...And them made him tell the story to the Platoon and tell them how it hurt like hell to pee, so bad that he HATED to piss. Well the rate dropped in my platoon. See just handing out condoms does not fix the problem....Teaching WHY will. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

See its even better... You make a CHOICE to put yourself at risk when you jump. You have NO Choice if you run into a crazy guy with a gun. You think all those that have been killed by guns CHOOSE to be killed? I have never un-holstered my weapon. In fact most times I don't not carry one. At work I amy not carry one, and at school I may not carry one. I see no need to carry one at the DZ. I have very little need to carry. However, I do have a loaded gun in my home, and carry when I travel. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Im not saying they are not..but if you had to choose between fixing the symptoms, or the cause...Which would you target? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Actually I think it a good one. People are afraid to go out without a weapon...Maybe. People are afraid to jump without a reserve parachute....Yep, I would say most are. Given the choice, I d rather go unarmed than without a reserve...But I can control the risk level on a voluntary jump.... I can't control a crazy with a gun. I can always choose not to jump, I can't always choose not to not be around crazy people. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

fixing the symptoms, not the problem. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Then why just for people under 18? Is it not cruel and unusual if the guy is 18? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Easier? I can't see it being easier. Cheaper?...Maybe. But they system could be better run. Only have capital punishment for cases that are quite clear...such as ones where the guy confesses, or the proof is quite clear. also no one has shown any proof one way or another which is cheaper...One has high costs of trial..The other has high costs of taking care of a prisioner for quite a long time...40-50 years with the expenses of medical care that get MUCH more expensive as people get older. Shut people up? Who cares? If you wanted to go that route then maybe they should shut up and allow us to kill the guilty...Or maybe they should shut up and make abortions illegal again....Or maybe we should make crack legal since it would be much easier to not deal with it... There is right, and there is wrong. People who rape and kill then eat them...Well they should not live, they would NEVER be rehabilitated. Also the problem with a "life sentance" is that people don't serve "life". They get out. The easy road while attractive is not always the right one. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Nothing wrong with a Sam.... Your progression is excelent, but what can you do with the canopies before you get a new one is the true test if its a good progression. Can you do the famous Bill's list? If not, then downsizing at any number of jumps is not enough. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yassar Arrafat was given one for "peace" Or he did something that would make him popular with the "blue" folks in his "blue" state. Maybe the system that IL had was so fucked up something had to be done? Still, I have no problem putting someone to death for capital crimes. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

What is it with you folks and approval seeking? Just cause he *might* have been nominated means nothing...Yassar Arrafat was given one for "peace" "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

DNA evidence, eyewitness's, them admitting it. No, but I got "A's" on my Algebra I and II classes "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Short easy (not complete) lesson: Planform (shape) decides how a canopy will handle in a turn. Square will turn slower, eliptical will turn faster. Semi-eliptical is a mix. Size equals speed. Its best to change one thing at a time....Pick the Planform you like before you pick the speed you want. Basicly demo they style of canopy to get the flight you like, and then pick the size to get the speed. *there are other factors such as trim...But this still applies, pick the canopy, then pick the size. Don't change more than one thing at a time if you can help it....And if you do, take it easy. All that been said. If you can do all of Bills famous list....I'd get a Sabre 2 one size smaller. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334