Ron

So what you want to do is raise the altitude that the new generation of jumpers will 'panic'??? That seems like a bad idea. I mean we have jumpers now that think pulling at 2.5 is 'death'. So we want to make the next generation afraid to pull below 3? It is bad when the BOD is siding with the manufacturers against the membership... Time after time after time. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Many years ago I had a dentist recommended to me by a friend. This dentist I was told was trustworthy. So I went to him. He told me that my teeth were strong as hell and that it was very unlikely that I woul ever have a cavity. Sounded strange, but he tol me that if I ever have a dentist tell me I need a cavity filled to walk away an not go back. That they 'fill' cavities to make money even when it is not needed. I was 19, today I am 40 and have still never had a cavity. BUT, I have had dentists tell me I have a cavity they *must* fill. I go to another dentist and they find zero cavities. This same Dr pulled two wisdom teeth and and I was not put under and walked out in my own power with no recovery issues. I had ONE pulled years later and it was a miserable exp. I I lived in Memphis still, I would STILL be using this guy. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

That is a very strong statement. Do you have any factual data that backs it up? JerryBaumchen PS) And for you and anyone: There is no TSO certification test for any parachute system to be open within 'x' seconds and/or 'y' feet when activated by an uncertificated AAD. IMO they should, but there is no req'ment that they must perform so. The time between ripcord pull and the loop being cut should be the same. But, answer these questions: 1. When were these rigs TSO'd? a) Javelin b) Vector c) Mirage 2. The CYPRES has been around 20+ years (and remember people used to pull lower). How many AAD fire/Bounces had happened 10 years ago? Answer those questions and you have your answers. Because for the life of me, I can't recall a single AAD fire that resulted in a bounce that was not easily explained (battery issue, set wrong.... Etc). "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I haven't and I likely never will. So what happens when two or more people think like you suggest and nobody pulls? Keep tracking and hope for a big pile of cardboard boxes?! At some point you get mad at the other guy for trying to kill you and you throw your pilot chute at him in anger. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

+1 This is the gist of this.... No member asked for this - Manufacturers asked for this. No member asked for age limits - Manufacturers did. No member asked for FAA medicals - Manufacturers did. No member asked for gear life spans - Manufacturers did. Members have asked for something to stop canopy deaths - Manufacturers didn't See a trend yet? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

No one is saying he does not have a reason. No one is saying it might not even be a good idea. What I am saying is Booth and other manufacturers have an influence on the BOD that is greater than the jumpers who make up the USPA. Is the USPA an organization to support the manufacturers, or the jumpers? You have (intentionally?) missed the thread. It is not about Booth being the mouth piece of anyone. It is the BOD being a mouth piece for Booth. An I have known Booth since 1996, so I know a bit about him. The issue is the new containers are not meeting the TSO standards they were certified under. The solution is to fix that, not move the AAD altitude up. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And if in their mind they have that extra 500 feet, then that will lead them to think they have more time. Thinking you have extra time is one of the major factors in cutting away low. No, no one thinks chopping at 200 feet is a good idea, however 700 feet might be ok (and I have done it). Yep. They wanted something to limit their liability. They stated thy wanted to raise the fire altitude to 1,000 feet but they would not do it till the USPA raised the pull altitude. The USPA acted on the manufactures interest. It was a side benefit to jumpers. The reason is the USPA should support the jumpers, not the manufacturers. Another example is the class three medical to do tandems. It is not needed, but the manufacturers wanted the USPA to take over that program, but insisted they would not allow it unless the USPA kept the mandate to get a class 3 medical. The USPA should of told the manufacturers to pound sand. They didn't, they bowed down once again. What benefit to the jumper is a class three medical? The AOPA EAA and even the FAA think flying can be done without them. The harm is that the BOD is doing the manufacturers bidding as a primary motivation. This makes the USPA nothing more than the PIA2. Where is the organization for the jumpers? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Or someone thinks that they have extra time because they are now higher and now take longer to act. Then the jumper would adjust for THEIR gear. It is abut educating jumpers. Besides, you seem to have missed the point of this thread.... It is not the rule itself, but how the USPA BOD seems to be serving the manufacturers and not the jumpers more and more. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

If you're using vertical separation to create canopy separation then you are part of the problem. Horizontal separation is what you should be aiming for. You have clearly have never done a big way skydive. Sometimes when you are on the same group... The best you can do is track till the people around you deploy. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And your point would be valid if all if those people pulled their main at 2k. But you and I both know that is not true. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

It is not the job of the USPA to reduce manufacturer liability. Back before the manufacturers started making super tight reserve pack trays with multiple flaps.... This was not an issue. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

That is a great question.... I'd bet the answer is no. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

The USPA is acting to reduce *manufacturer liability*.... The USPA is not the PIA. That is a conspiracy, even if you don't want to see it "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

If you listen to what the BOD is saying, it was not to give more time (since as you stated most jumpers pull above 2.5k already) it is a move to allow AAD manufacturers to raise the firing altitude. They do not want to do it before not because they were afraid of more misfires. This new rule allows them to raise the firing altitude from 750 to 1k. Limits their liability. There is no doubt a 1k AAD firing altitude would be safer, but they will not do that since it was too close to the C and D altitude of 2k. They can now raise it with protection. But it is not too low. People have been pulling there for decades. And as Quade pointed out, a guy that lost track of time is unlikely to get much from the three seconds ..... In fact, people often delay based on the amount of time they think they have. RE: if I pull at 2 and have a mal, I handle it right then. I I pulled at 5, I can take some time. It is a out the C an D license holders.... The highest level the USPA has. We are not talking about students. And there is nothing that prevents a D license holder from pulling higher. So since nothing is preventing a person from pulling higher, and most people pull above there anyway.... Why is a rule change needed? Think about that... Why change it if not for the AAD manufacturers? You are missing the point. It is not about the rule, it is a out how the BOD is dictating rules based on the desires of a manufacturer and not the membership. THAT is the issue, not the rule itself "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

It is really very simple. In some cases a back up device didn't work in time. The AAD manufacturers want to limit their risk and want to raise the firing altitude. They don't want to do that until they get the USPA to raise the limit as well.... Also limiting their risk of a misfire due to a jumper who is not smart enough to know his gear. Currently they don't want to raise the limit, but now they can. So this move benefits AAD manufacturers by limiting their liability by raising firing altitudes. Never mind they could of done it and just like the FXC's of old smart skydivers would just make the adjustment themselves.... Or how PD suggested pulling higher when the Stiletto came out instead of making the USPA change the rules. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Cliff also had a financial incentive. Might want to look at the dog. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I have emailed, called, and talked to many on the BOD. You and I think I were both signatories on a letter that several wrote years ago. They ignored all of, like they always do "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I'd like to see _any_ evidence that this is about 'bowing down to Bill Booth." I"m opposed to the BSR and voiced that opinion. The BSR addresses a software issue on a non-mandatory piece of equipment. That said, the manufacturers have also openly said they won't raise the activation altitude until opening minimums are raised, because of the narrow window. People are screaming that +/-750' isn't enough (based on recent fatalities). The BSR is passed, but things can also be "unpassed" if there is enough reason (OK, I laughed a little behind my hand at that one, the BOD rarely seems to observe "reason." ) Booth has been trying to get the altitudes raised ever since he started distribution for an AAD company. Until then, he *suggested* they be raised. When the Stiletto came out, it was suggested that anyone jumping one open higher than 2k. Same situation, yet the BOD acted only on this, now. There is no rule that a person can't open higher. This is nothing but the BOD doing a manufacturers bidding. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Left hand door - Left hand donut is 'A'. Right hand door - Right hand donut is 'A'. The reason is simple, the exit. A left grip donut is an easier launch from a left hand door than a right hand donut. Most teams will have a continuity plan that will dictate what mirror is A or B. They develop this quickly. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Once again the USPA BOD proves it is nothing more than a mouth piece doing several gear manufacturers bidding. The USPA BOD just raised the min pull altitude for 'C' and 'D' license holders from 2,000 feet to 2,500. This was not on any agenda list that I read, and no input from regular skydivers was solicited.... What was done was to bow down to Bill Booth. This action has zero reason unless the next step is to mandate AAD's. And last I recall (it has been a while) Booth had a pretty large stake in the US distribution rights of Vigil. This new rule is worthless and stupid on its own. Simplest reason? There is NOTHING in any rule that makes it impossible to pull at 2500 feet right NOW. Nothing. In fact, if you are a 'D' or 'C' license holder there is nothing to prevent you from pulling at 3,500 feet right now. So this rule makes zero sense because it can be done voluntarily right now with zero impact on anyone. Further, a person who has lost altitude awareness from 2,000 feet is unlikely to suddenly become more aware with an extra 3 seconds. Fact is that if the USPA actually cared about safety, they would do something that kills more skydivers than loss of altitude awareness.... And that is canopy control. This act is nothing but setting the stage to mandate AAD's. Now, do I think pulling at 2500 feet is a good idea? Yes, and most times I pull around 3,000 feet. But this rule is unneeded since most people are already pulling above 2,000 feet and people can decide at any time to raise their own pull altitudes. What this does is limit demo's when there are low clouds. Worse, it shows that the BOD is nothing but a mouth piece for the companies in skydiving. The BOD serves PD, UPT and DZO's not regular jumpers. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Once again the USPA BOD proves it is nothing more than a mouth piece doing several gear manufacturers bidding. The USPA BOD just raised the min pull altitude for 'C' and 'D' license holders from 2,000 feet to 2,500. This was not on any agenda list that I read, and no input from regular skydivers was solicited.... What was done was to bow down to Bill Booth. This action has zero reason unless the next step is to mandate AAD's. And last I recall (it has been a while) Booth had a pretty large stake in the US distribution rights of Vigil. This new rule is worthless and stupid on its own. Simplest reason? There is NOTHING in any rule that makes it impossible to pull at 2500 feet right NOW. Nothing. In fact, if you are a 'D' or 'C' license holder there is nothing to prevent you from pulling at 3,500 feet right now. So this rule makes zero sense because it can be done voluntarily right now with zero impact on anyone. Further, a person who has lost altitude awareness from 2,000 feet is unlikely to suddenly become more aware with an extra 3 seconds. Fact is that if the USPA actually cared about safety, they would do something that kills more skydivers than loss of altitude awareness.... And that is canopy control. This act is nothing but setting the stage to mandate AAD's. Now, do I think pulling at 2500 feet is a good idea? Yes, and most times I pull around 3,000 feet. But this rule is unneeded since most people are already pulling above 2,000 feet and people can decide at any time to raise their own pull altitudes. What this does is limit demo's when there are low clouds. Worse, it shows that the BOD is nothing but a mouth piece for the companies in skydiving. The BOD serves PD, UPT and DZO's not regular jumpers. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Well, I wish every DZ was run like yours. And I wish every DZ had someone like you to 'organize' the WS jumpers. Seriously, if more of you were around then we would not have half of the issues we have with WS's.... But I think you would agree that not every DZ has a guy like you. I will gladly buy you a drink of your choice at our first meeting. And I will continue to direct people to you for coaching..... But not everyone is as skilled/knowledgable as you. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

One is an act that they intentionally do to get a rush, the other is a basic skill. Hell, I'd be fine with them leaving last as long as if they buzzed a person without permission they were instantly grounded. But the problem is the young hotshots that don't listen... Well, they don't listen. A decent WS can also not fly up or down the line of flight. Heck, a decent WS flier can fly down the line of flight near canopies and not create a dangerous situation. The problem is the guy with very little skill that thinks he is a god and can do as he pleases and use anyone he wants as a swoop toy. I actually had to tell on such hotshot that if he got near me again that I would shred his WS into little pieces. True, and you know more about WS flight than me. But it is not YOU I am worried about. I think I could put YOU anywhere in the line up and have zero issues with you putting anyone in danger. But I am not talking about you, I am talking about people with little skill that think others are their swoop toys. The danger of putting WS last is that I often see them using tandems as toys. Even if the TI agrees to the danger, the student most likely didn't and does not understand the risks. And again, it is not someone who honestly has the skill.... It is those who think they have the skill. I'd be fine with the WS out last.... As long as the first time they buzz a tandem they are kicked off the DZ. But that does not happen. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I've never seen that order before. Do you know what the thinking is behind it? You can put the WS last.... But the temptation of the WS to use the students or tandems as swoop toys often gets too great. As long as the WS jumpers do not fly up the line of flight (and anyone flying a WS should be able to do that) there is no risk. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Depends on the plane But basically it is not a good idea to not configure the plane for exit for each pass. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334