Ron

Here's another from dz.com, this one from Spaceland 7 Nov 2007: ***Main: PD 210 w / 500 Jumps+ Reserve: PD143R New Container: Reflex / 100 jumps AAD: Cypress 2 / Brand new / Turned on and also from dz.com, one from Cross Keys 11 Apr 2011: Not many data points, no pattern. Mark You say no pattern.... But everything you have listed seems to be a CYPRES... And what you have posted shows all but *maybe* one (for the data you have provided) seems to be a C2. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Your distraction might be valid if I had known about this issue before they were procured. But when I got them 2002, 2005, this was not an issue. I have not mentioned a single brand as being better or worse. And I have refrained from making assumption other than bring up the general issue.... And I have done that on purpose. Since it is in no way relevant to the discussion.... You will just have to learn to live with disappointment. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And the manufacturers should try.... However the USPA is supposed to represent jumpers, not the manufacturers. The USPA is doing nothing about the real issue... Instead they applied a bandaid that *might* do something about one very small type of accident while ignoring the larger issue. This is not about what I personally want. It is about how MANY more skydivers have been killed by controlled flight into terrain.... And still no BSR about it. But a handful I jumpers die because of slow opening reserves and the BOD acts. Why BSR action on the lesser issue and not the much larger issue? I don't need to propose one... You already did an it failed. Again, why has the BOD ignored your proposal that might have saved MANY times the number of jumpers yet acted on an issue that might affect very few? The answer is simple: WL BSR would hurt business. Raising AAD altitude might save them a lawsuit. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I have a line on two brand new looking security 250's. They were made in 1978, but look new. I know the 350 had an acid mesh issue. And I know the 350's on had a life span listed in the manual of 10 years with a 5 year option after factory inspection. So my question is this.... I don't think the 250's are impacted by these two issues. Am I wrong? Serial numbers: 10028; 10691. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I have asked you before and you ignored it... How many of the people that died skydiving thought they were going to die skydiving? How many of the people that died skydiving thought they were in over their head? How many that died thought they were capable of doing whatever killed them? And what makes you different? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Just for the record, what rig/reserve canopy do you jump? Just wondering as your profile is vacant, JerryBaumchen How is my personal gear relevant when I have not mentioned a single 'suspect' piece of equipment? You tell me why my personal rigs are important to the discussion and I will gladly tell you. But since I am not promoting one brand over another, or laying blame on one or the other.... I fail to see how it is relevant. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

It *might* save someone. It *will* protect the manufacturer. Don't you think the USPA should be more concerned with fixing the real problem than a solution that *might* save a very, very small number of members? They are doing the business of the manufacturers, not the members. There is an organization to support the manufacturers... It is called the PIA. We could save a skydiver from death and a manufacturer from a lawsuit by banning high performance canopies, or by restricting their use.... Why don't we see the BOD taking BSR action on that issue? In fact, we would save quite a bit more than this issue *might* save. Why no BSR on limiting canopy sizes? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Where did I say I thought they knew all the data? Please provide that quote to me. In fact, I said they DON'T have all the info and instead made a rule in the blind hope it would fix something. As for giving the information to the USPA. The USPA has already given personal information to lawyers that hurt a DZ during a lawsuit. It was information that the USPA was not supposed to keep. But they are ignoring the real issue and their actions *might* help in a VERY small set of circumstances. All I. Really does is help to protect the manufacturers. I give up. Mark You made a comment claiming I 'knew' something. I asked you to back up that claim. Don't blame me because you misspoke "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Where did I say I thought they knew all the data? Please provide that quote to me. In fact, I said they DON'T have all the info and instead made a rule in the blind hope it would fix something. As for giving the information to the USPA. The USPA has already given personal information to lawyers that hurt a DZ during a lawsuit. It was information that the USPA was not supposed to keep. But they are ignoring the real issue and their actions *might* help in a VERY small set of circumstances. All I. Really does is help to protect the manufacturers. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Are you saying the problem is slower opening reserve canopies (which canopies?), slower opening reserve containers (which containers?), or some combination (which combinations)? Mark Bill gave a good answer - We don't know yet. We do know that 10 years ago we didn't have people having AAD fires bouncing even after the AAD fired (there were some random cases, but those were quickly traced to issues like using mostly dead batteries, way low temperatures, cutters that were built incorrectly, set wrong... Etc). So when the devices were built, tested, and introduced, 750 feet was fine. But today we are seeing a few cases of the AAD firing an the reserve not getting open in time. So ask what changed? 20 years ago more people pulled at or even below 2k than today. So logically the only thing that has changed is the gear. Same AAD firing height so it is not the AAD (although an argument could be made that maybe it is the new generation AAD's having issues). But most likely it is the result of modifications that have taken place on the container while still using the old TSO. Add in that maybe it is only an issue with the new generation of reserves. Maybe it is a combination issue where it only happens with 'X' AAD with 'Y' reserve in a 'Z' container. But unless we look into the issue we will never know. This rule change does not even look into the issue, it just slaps a bandaid on it and hopes for the best. The problem is that if it is a reserve/container issue. Then the problem is still there. And it will remain a problem that will impact each and every cutaway and emergency exit forever. This 'fix' only helps with reserve activation by AAD as long as the cutaway was above the new firing height. And a good number of these deaths are from low cutaways.... So this will not help, and worse by ignoring the real issue it hurts them. What should happen? Well the USPA should not be making rules to protect manufacturers. The USPA should look at every suspected gear combination and list out the container, reserve, and AAD and see if there is any trend. They should also test, or ask the manufacturer to test those same gear combinations that were involved in these accidents to see if it is a repeatable event. By doing this we can see if it is a size issue, brand issue, comparability issue, or something else. But the current path does nothing but provide liability protection to the people who make the gear. It throws extra altitude to one scenario (in free fall with nothing out) in the HOPE that it will fix the problem. The problem is simple... Reserves are no longer opening fast enough from AAD fires. Why was this not a problem 20 years ago when people pulled at 2k more than today? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

They have stated that is why they did this.... No need to wonder. Can you not understand that they had two options: 1. Do what the would be best for the jumpers and fix the underlying problem of reserves not deploying in time from AAD fires.... Which is a new development. This would have also benefited people who chop low or bail out low. 2. Do what is best for the manufacturers and put a bandaid fix on the problem that will not fix the underlying problem but will provide protection from liability to the manufacturers. This will not protect people who chop low or bail out low. Not a difficult concept.... Most people see the forest for the trees. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Well then I guess it won't hurt anything either. If it will not fix the problem... It is worthless. And the problem is slower opening reserves. Fixing that problem will help not only those who have an AAD fire, but those that cutaway lower than ideal. And it will hurt things. Some demos will get canceled. Some days D license folks will not be able to do hop n pops. So it fixes nothing, and impacts skydivers. Worse, it tries to cover up the real issue with a bandaid. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

The fact of the matter is people are already pulling above 2k most of the time now. So this does not really give any more time but to those very few that are pulling at 2k (not many people). Do you have any data that any of those that died recently pulled at 2k feet? Because, from the data I have seen - That is not the case. So this would not have helped them. For this to do any good, you would have to know that altitude that most people are pulling and raise THAT altitude. Most people already pull above. 2.5 so this will fix nothing "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Hey mods (other than Bill of course)... How exactly is that NOT a personal attack? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yes, people still hit trees. What you have not seen is the USPA change the BSR because people still hit trees. You are proving my point, and are too obsessed with being argumentative to even notice. Pathetic... I am starting to see a trend. You have to counter anything I say just to be contrary. But the problem is I have already mentioned your point.... You are so eager to contradict me that you have not bothered to read what has already been written. If this was a case of jumper SKILL and the BSR addressed THAT... Your diatribe would have merit. But this is about the equipment, not about skill. And the historical record shows that 10 years ago when people pulled lower on average than they do today.... This was not an issue. The only *significant* factor is the gear. Instead of focusing on the data, your personal hard on for me has clouded your judgment. Funny. 1. The data from deaths of this nature is recent. 2. I thought mods were supposed to not make personal attacks? Shame that if I had said that if YOU, you would have banned me. Maybe you should stop posting for a bit on the topic till you can be less emotional? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Nonsense. Most BSR's benefit a majority of skydivers, or students. This does neither I used to think you could do better than this... I am not so sure anymore. But the wind limit for D license holders is 'unlimited'. So your 'argument' falls flat. Interectually dishonest of you... Young ignored the small per percentage comment. Seriously... Is this the best you can do? They work for *minor* wounds.... Unless you recommend a bandaid for cancer or a broken bone? Seriously... This the best you can do? Wow, I guess it is the best you can do. Ok simply put this action ignored the issue of rigs not meeting TSO anymore... As evidenced by this not being an issue even 5 much less 10 years ago. Why don't you list the incidents and dates for us? It is pretty clear you are either ignorant of them, or choose to ignore them. Seriously.... This the best you have? I (wrongly?) expected more from you. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Then maybe you should learn about the other issues and then you will see the pattern. This helps a very small subset of skydivers... Currently almost NO ONE since most AADs do not have the new altitude. Then it will only fix the rare person who rides a closed container below 1k feet. However, it does NOTHING for a person who cuts away low. While those numbers have been included in the numbers of deaths that this was supposed to help prevent. So it helps manufactures, *might help* a super small percentage of skydivers who have already made more than one mistake, and helps zero skydivers who might have a low bailout or cut away low. It is a bandaid.... Not even a very good one. What it is very good at is covering up the manufacturers no longer meeting TSO. It is the only thing this does well "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

They may agree.... But that does not make their opinion correct. Simply put, fatalities are not voted on. So no matter how many 100 jump people you get to agree with you.... You are still not safe. You are looking for people to agree with you while ignoring all the exp people telling you that you are wrong. People claim they will do the gear checks.... Yet we still have people with more jumps than you making stupid mistakes. And then compare then compare the cost of a mistake.... I doubt very many gymnasts die each year. I drive 90 miles to one DZ and fly 1300 miles to the other and i have still done 200+ jumps this year... i also work full time and have other hobbies. If you don't have time it is because you don't make the time. You are ignoring all the accidents that are due to the fault of the jumper (most of them). Look, fact is you don't know what you don't know and your posts prove it. If I walked into a gym and claimed I could be good if I came in once a month for an hour... You would (rightfully) laugh at me. And not having a bunch of jumps is not looked down on... Your attitude is what is looked down on. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

That is because they have not really done anything. You and I have done just as much yet we don't claim to represent jumpers in the US. They ASKED the PIA to do something.... And gave no time line or repercussion for ignoring the request. So the PIA ignored it. I assume you have been a manager before and this is not the way to handle a situation.... I would think you know that. They published some info.... Great, how about they publish a feature in 'Parachutist' where they list every combination of gear that has had this happen. Size, make, model, year. And then maybe they could test some of those combinations to see if they meet the TSO standard? Seen that happen? Nope? I wonder why? Oh because listing the gear in a feature would upset the manufactures. Testing those combinations would upset the manufacturers. Yeah, yeah, you are going to claim that testing is expensive... Fine. But why no FEATURE in the MEMBER SUPPORTED magazine listing the combinations that have not worked as advertised? And finding the issue with reserves not opening in time would save more... To include the people who react slow to a malfunction and cut away below 1000 feet. I always pegged you for a logical guy.... But you refuse to see that they are ignoring the issue and instead passing rules they HOPE will work. Simply put: 1. This was not a problem 10 years ago. It is a problem now. You have to identify the real reason to get a real solution. 2. The USPA is supposed to represent the jumpers, not rubber stamp the wishes of a manufacturer. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You are intentionally missing the point. There is a problem now. There was not a problem 10 years ago. Instead of the USPA looking at the reason since it would upset the manufacurers... They instead change the BSR's to make the manufacturers happy. You can ignore the facts.... That does not make them go away "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

The USPA is supposed to represent the jumpers, not be a mouth piece for the manufacturers "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=tQuJr5wuvSw#t=336 Thanks, anyone that thinks that the BOD is not following the request of Bill Booth... They need to watch this. 1. Raise the min pull altitudes - Done 2. Keep the tandem age limit at the age to sign waivers - Done. Just goes to show that the BOD is doing what Booth wants. I wish that someone would of asked Booth why these AAD fire/bounces have just started to hone in the last few years. Because logically the only answer is the rigs and reserves are no longer working as TSO'd "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

How many of the people that died skydiving do you think thought they were NOT good enough? As for currency.... Your unicycle example is cute, but not applicable. See that girl that took a 10 year layoff is like me taking a 10 year layoff form skydiving. I have 6k+ jumps nationals medals.... Blah, blah. But we are not talking about a person who was at the top of the game, we are talking about a guy with 15 jumps over 5 years.... Not 6k over 20 years. So.... How would YOU perform on that unicycle if you only did it twice a year for 1 minute? I'd bet you would not perform very well. And THAT is the example. If you did 'perfect' 360's your first attempt we should talk about putting you on a team so you can use those mad skills. But most likely, your definition of 'perfect' and mine do not jive. I have 6k jumps... I don't turn 'perfectly'. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I'll assume you are being honest and not trolling. I think the USPA membership is a waste. People never 'set it ad forget it'. There are plenty of stories where people made a bad choice directly related to the camera. Each of these people thought they would not be influenced by the camera... Till they were. So a person having the basic life saving skills of skydiving down before they try to start filming... Good idea. As for you being able to review the footage and use it to make you better... Nope. POV video doe not really help debriefing a participants skydive. For that you need an outside camera flier. This is also wrong. Currency is important. I'll give you a personal example.... I took about a year off from jumping. I was according to any measurement of the USPA, DZ, and most jumpers current because my version of 'taking a year off' meant that I was only doing AFF and Tandem jumps as an instructor and only made ~100 jumps that year. I was still on a DZ a lot since I was also coaching a 4way team. Well this year I was hired as a player coach for a team... So I did 25 hours of tunnel and so far about 180 team jumps this year. I can easily see the difference in my overall awareness and skill between those two years. In fact, I even made a comment to my team that one weekend it was like my vision went back to high def where it used to be when I was doing my last team. So yes.... Currency matters. People like to claim that, but history shows otherwise. It may not matter after you make a few thousand jumps, but at a few hundred going long periods of time and your skills do degrade. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

"After the pin is pulled, Mr Grenade is not our friend" You need to accept that if your pretty life saving canopy is no longer pretty or life saving - it is best to throw it away quickly. Get EXCITED about your first Mal.... They can be a lot of fun. But yes, the thinking you had is the cause for a great many number of fatalities..... FIX IT. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334