Ron

Ever had it Mal on you? Even the most docile canopies can get violent when they mal. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I teach whatever the DZ I am at teaches. That way they do not get confused with other students or other adivce given to other students. What are they? I would suggest that you pick a method and stick with it...It is a VERY important procedure and having more than one in your brain can casue problems when the shit hits the fan.....Some times you revert back to the most recent, some times you revert back to the first, and sometimes you mix the two and that can be bad. I would teach one hand per handle. Pull the reserve after you fall away. I think having the reserve ready is more important than the chance of a double out. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You say that like it has killed more than an RSL. Have any proof of that statement? And it goes back to what you consider "Good". I don't consider a safety device that can kill you when used correctly as good. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Correct. I think that two hands per handle has only one benefit...Hard pulls are easier. You can claim that it also will prevent an out of sequience pull. But so will having a good procedure on one hand per handle. To that you also can claim that the two hands on one handle can make it hard to find the reserve. As Bill stated one guy ripped his shirt looking for the reserve handle. So: 1. One hand per handle might give you an out od sequence deployment... 2. Two hands per handle might have you back in freefall looking for the reserve till you impact. I'll take two out over nothing out any day. While buddy breathing has problems...I can't see how its good not to know it. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

That would not be proper procedure now would it? Every method has problems. You have to look at each method and then decide which is good for you. The two hands per handle method takes time, harnesses shift, Makes it harder to be stable. One hand each handle can have a hard pull, out of sequence deployment. I find that one hand each handle is easier to fix the potential problems....I wait till I am released before I pull the reserve. But I think it has more benefits...For one I already have my hand on the handle and can pull it at anytime. I don't have to look for it. But, I think that a proper single hand on each handle method is better than any device. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And they also have: 1. Higher pull altitudes. 2. More docile equipment. 3. In the case of Tandems an experienced jumper, and in the case of students they have JUST praticed their procedures and they are fresh in their minds...They also are not yet complacent. You can claim it is just the RSL, but I think its more about the fact students are scared, just practiced their procedures, and jump docile equipment. Not true. There are fatalities where people trapped the reserve in them as they flipped and rolled. Roger Nelson. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And they would also have been alive if they had used a one hand each handle emergency procedure. The above statement has as much truth to it as yours about RSL being able to save them. Both might be correct or not. So the BEST thing to do here is have a good procedure over a device that could actually make the situation worse. How could good procedures actually made those situations worse? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yep. A low collision is EXACTLY when an RSL is good. It is exactly when I would want one. Your claim of entaglements up high is almost a non issue. If you maintain your gear you will have very little chance of a problem. Its good to use your head to look at different things. It is not wise to not listen to the answers you get because you don't like them. Why? I can only think of one reason and thats an entanglement. But think of this...If you are in an entaglement that means you have deployed your main. Which means you no longer wish to be in freefall. So why would you want to freefall below the hight you wanted a main out? The only answer to that is to fall free of the mess...OK that would be a fair answer. But how long are you gonna delay? Choose to have an RSL then keep it, or don't. But to switch back in forth in the air is the worst thing you can do for the very reasons we have all stated. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

To which your post just told ALL people who skydive to cut one shorter than the other. Are you a rigger? Do you think its wise to make such statements as "Fact" when at least on maker of containers said the opposite of what you recomended? Also you missed this part of Bills post :"In truth, the 2" differential really doesn't matter. If we assume you are pulling your cutaway handle at just 5 feet (60 inches) per second (most people pull a lot faster), then the 2" differential represents only 1/30 th of a second between riser releases." So in fact your own "proof" states it does not matter. But you stated something as fact when in fact it was not (as evidenced by Sunpaths manual), and your proof stated it does not matter. That is a weak position to claim you are correct. If you had said' "Relative Workshop recomends", that would be one thing, but you said they ALL should be and that is wrong. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Ah no. Almost every student had an "expert" with them on every jump...Most common level of AFF has two, and every Tandem has one. Since most "Student" jumps are AFF early levels (with two "experts") and tandems your statement is wrong. So, you say students have more mals than experts? Your logic that there are more students than "experts" is already shot. Esp. when you consider NUMBER of jumps made. A student may make one of two a day, but for every student there is atleast one "Expert" with them. I myself helped 7 people last weekend do their first jump....But that means I did 7 that one day. So how do you come to that conclusion? On this we agree....And remember I don't like RSL's, so thats saying something. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Read your maunal. The Javelin says they are the SAME length after the loop. 5 1/2 inches. Page 33 I don't have a Vector Manual handy...but last time I checked it said close to the same thing. Anyway please don't give advice without backing up your reference. In this case you just gave advice directly opposite what the Javelin Manual says. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You don't know how an RSL works then. A low collision is one of the few times I would WANT an RSL. Also you have very little chance of an entaglement up high. No offense, I don't like RSL's one little bit, but your logic is bad here. You worry about collisions? Then look around a bunch under canopy. Two out? Maintain your gear. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I recomend it till you have sucessfully done a real life emergency procedure, then you make up your own mind. A safety device that can kill you is not a good saftey device in my mind. All of those saved by an RSL screwed up. All of those killed didn't have a choice. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

So its OK to not plan on pulling your reserve if you have a CYPRES? That is EXACTLY what this AD is against. But you seem to think its wrong? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

No. One of the benefits of an RSL is it can help you if you freeze in a malfunction. While I don't like RSL's...It makes no sense to attach it or detach it if you have one. Decide if you want an RSL based on its merits or faults and then use on, or don't. Don't try in air rigging. All it does is remove your attention from what you are doing, or need to do. BTW my take on an RSL is use it till you have your first mal where you pulled both handles...Then make a decision. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I didn't like your poll options, so I didn't vote. Women do not need a special class in skydiving. Women have shown that they can be the best no matter what sex they compete against. Eliana, Natasha ect have shown that sex matters not in skydiving. I think a womans class is not needed. I do however think that as long as the IPC supports a class the US should send a team...And that team should win. The USPA has done just about everything to destroy a womans class. Its a shame really. I don't like the womans class, prefering to judge off of raw averages, but as long as the IPC has the class the US should field a team, and the USPA should support them. If the woman are going to have a team the Video person should HAVE to be female as well. Why not? If the idea of a womans class is to provide females the opportunity to compete (which I think they have anyway) then why not allow female videograpers the same chance? If you allow male video folks for the female class I wonder if you really feel like its supporting women. Cause if you don't make the class have female video folks...Then you are in fact contradicting yourself. You claim they are not many skilled female video folks (I have been told this by the IPC) I say Bullshit. Lew for example kicks ass. And is not the whole reason of a female class to encourage females to compete? Does that not include getting females up to speed on video as well? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Its another part of the low jump number jumpers cry about how jump numbers do not mean anything. Since they only have a few jumps their egos cannot allow that someone else with more should be better/more current/safer than them. Ask Tony Hathaway if I listen to him when he talks. It amazes me how some can claim that experience and currency does not make a safer jumper than a low timer that jumps occasionally. No point in continuing with someone who refuses to see. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And I bet a majority of Instructors say the same type of thing....Yet people still do rely on them. So the question is why and how can we get around it. I think the why is once they hear that it can save them some start to feel safe. In the back of their mind they "know" that they will be ok and I think that takes the edge off. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Its amazing that the smaller group make more jumps and therefore MORE chances, but are safer. You claim that they do more dangerous stuff as well, and yet they are still safer. Gus was discounted since anyone in that positon would have had that happen to them..skill had nothing to do with it. Chris was a stunt...You could count him if you like, but the point I made was COMPETITORS and last I checked he was not one. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I don't remember, but it was not much. It was a military club so it was quite cheap for the soldier. Gear rental for the weekend was like 25 bucks. The student learned to pack in the FJC and then took the rig home with them to bring to the DZ. They then turned it back in on Monday. A REALLY good program IMO, but not pratical for most DZ's. I can see a DZ saying to a prospective student, "Their FJC is a week? There is no need for that, ours is 6 hours and taught by USPA rated instructors"....Most students would go there. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You claim to want to show/tell them everything they might need to make a safe skydive yet you don't teach them to pack? See the problem with your logic? I am not saying you are wrong...In fact I tell the students about the RSL and AAD...But I have noticed that some seem to latch onto that tidbit of info. And the more common AAD fires and cases like the above jumper expecting the RSL to fire a total..Makes me wonder how to better get the idea across about THEY must save themselves. I think we are in fact breeding dependant skydivers and I am not sure why. One factor is that many of todays Instructors are themselves children of a good modern AAD. I wonder how much of that confidence gets transfered to the students? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Sure ya did, right here. Go fish. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Each pack job has stages where they had to have them checked before they could continue. This includes all student jumps. We call them "rigger checks" even though we had Instructors checking them. I think it lead greatly to the the students understanding of the system. Also it has the benefit of costing only time and at the small club it was not needed to be in a rush. Modern student canopies are hard to screw up. Plus each was checked along different stages and they were watched the whole time. I like the idea and if ever I decide to make a million dollars out of two, I will open a DZ that includes this. BTW the FJC was about three days long. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I used to teach packing as part of the FJC. The student had 5 packs before he ever jumped. He then jumped his own pack jobs...To include his first jump. Pretty cool. I have no problem taking longer to teach a student. In fact I still wish I could make students learn to pack before they jump. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Chris died doing a stunt. How much you wanna bet that a fun jumper would have had an even smaller chance of pulling that off? It is amazing that you argue that currency makes no difference in safety. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334