Spizzzarko

Someone has to come in last! I'm sure I have that one covered for you.

Steve is already making excuses as to why he is not competing this year. Old people can still be usefull... Look at Joe Bennet! He and Jesus swooped together back in the day and he is still usefull for comedic relief. His one time out here in Colorado was pretty damn funny! I for one would like to see Steve get his geriatric ass back down to Colorado in two weeks!!! Morris, How difficult was it to sew your line attachement point tape back up into the canopy? That always looked to be a fairly extensive mod if you ask me. If you really get down to it I think paul is refering to modifications that would include RDS, 350 HMA, and stiching risers. These are easily purchased mods that can be done by almost anyone. As far as line trims go, I'm sure that if you and I are thinking about a different trim that the factory teams have already tried it. I talkied to Jim about this and he was saying that they go through many trim changes to find out what works and what doesn't. Sure stock trim is not going to be as aggressive in flight as other trims are but you have to take into account trim changes affect opening characteristics. It seems that the stock trim is a compromise between performance and opening. Sure could you change your trim on your canopy? Yes, but if you are cutting away in a comp more than once you get no score.

With all of the money that you save you can buy a less trojanesque helmet.

There is a dude in NM that did a couple of test fires ons some cypresses. He was able to get it to fire when he put it in the side pocket of his shorts, but was not able to get it to fire on his back. He did not offset the cypres or anything like that. I think the cypres is smart and calculates the pressure differential of being in your burble. That is just my opinion.

The numbers you guys are quoting seem really freaking high to me. We have a radar gun that we use here in Colorado for some of our training. The fastest I have ever seen people going is about 84MPH in the turn an about 82 through the gates. I have Radared Stu quite a bit and he builds up a goo amounbt of speed and then slows down a little in the middle of his turn and then speeds back up through the gates. He does come through the gates with a lot of power. Those numbers were about what I was seeing at the last PST event for many of the PRO factory team swoopers.

Can I advertise the gear I have for sale in this forum too? Velo 96 with RDS! Velo 90 with RDS! PD-113R! Jav RS!

Steve, I think that the PST can actually absorb the CPC and everyone can fly the same courses. The PST events are not that much harder or different than the CPC events in my opinion. If you got rid of the local CPC events and had two CPC events tied in with the PST I am sure Jim would get more turn out. As far as prize money goes there needs to be a better system than just the first place dude getting it all. I think that was kind of shitty. If the PST and the CPC merged then you can get a better handle on the class system and just allow people to jump in what ever class they want as long as there is a way to ensure that the top talent moves up in the classes so that it isn't the same people winning each event. There should not be a huge dissparity in points from the first place person to the second or third place. If there is then that person needs to move up in classes. Honestly I know I would compete in the intermediate level of my system because I do not really want to compete with Jay and those dudes. I don't think I would learn as much. As far as money goes, who cares? If you are doing this shit for cash then you really need to step back and reevaluate why you are doing this. In my theoretical open class there should be less money awarded in my opinion because the people who would compete in this class should be fully sponsored or near that level. I would split any purse fairly equally among all of the classes and then have pay outs for the top 4 finishers in each event. I think the focus on prize money in these events is very misleading as to the goal of these events. Is it not to come together and have a good time and learn from each other? What about the spirit of competition? I think that gets clouded when there is skrilla involved. Hell make everyones hotel stays freaking cheaper! I would hapilly pay my entry fees knowing that my money helped someone else aford to compete. Look at Jairo who cannot afford to come out because he got a speeding ticket! Mostly that is his fault but hell, if my entry fee went to help reduce other peoples costs then it just brings more people to the comp. That in turn brings more money to the plate for distribution or what not. Currently I have no idea where my entry fees go. They are pretty steep in my opinion and personally I do not just want to give my money to Jay each time because he is jumping a modified canopy that I cannopt compete against. DIATRIBE COMPLETE! Grant

It seems to me that the factories are looking for more than just talent. I'm sure they want the "Whole Person" to be all around good. If they most talented swooper is a dick then I'm sure the factory will overlook them and sponsor some one else. Take Stu for example. The dude is very talented and an all around good dude. Stu also has a love of swooping that would be hard to beat from the most dedicated person out there. I'm sure there were several opportunites that he had before he chose to go with PD and Fastrax. Also take Ian Drennan. Ian has a true love for swooping and coaching people so that they do not get hurt. Ian is an all around good guy that any company would want to have representing their products. I really don't know Paul that well but from what I do know of him he exudes a professionalism about canopy flight that is hard to match. Paul is probably one of if not the most experienced person on the JVX out there. Additionaly let's not forget Kevin Love of Team Extreme. Kevin has a lot of jumps but what sets Kevin on a pedestal in my book is his friendly personality. He always has a positive thing to say to you when you see him and is always willing to help out if you ask him a question. So you can see that there is alittle more to it than just being really good at swooping. True companies want their products to finish at the top in the competitions but I'm sure they don't want any douche bags (like me ) representing them. From what I have seen of the PD folks (this is mearly my opinion and is not substantiated in any way shape or form) it seems to me that they are given a canopy and told to report back to the company about their impressions of it. They may or may not know what the differences are in that canopy. Again I cannot prove it, but this opinion comes from my conversations with some of them. Additionaly the changes in the canopy might be so moderate that they might not see a difference. Remember competition jumps are slightly different jumps than a regular fun jump as people are wearing as much weight as they can and are pushing their canopies as hard as they can. Mel, Yes, in a sense we are all test jumpers if you get down to it and I agree with you on that, but in my opinion manufacturing defects such as the ones on the crossfire and the ones on the Raven reserves are just unacceptable. I know making canopies is difficult but there has to be a good QA in this business or people are going to get hurt. I'm sure we both agree on that from our conversations. I like the options you offer and the information you provide. Your customer service has always been top notch for me. Thanks! Grant

I was going to post this in the Women's forum but I thought it might go over like the proverbial "Turd" int the punch bowl. For your viewing pleasure... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ga0HFcYISYY&NR=1

I read it as, you were saying that other companies, except for P.D., put there product out there and the jumpers do the testing. and P.D. products are already tested... I'm sure PD does quite a bit of testing but I'm sure they have also released things with known "characteristics" Look at the original sabre. Did it notoriously open hard? Is that something you want to unleash on the public? What about the crossfire one? Did they know that it would collapse in front riser input with turbulance? I'm sure these things may have been unknown but it sucks to be a test jumper.

sounds like a reasonable price to me. Take retail and subtract 35% and you get dealership cost. 225 jumps is really not that many jumps to put on a canopy. It is probably just broken in and easier to pack. Have fun and be carefull.

I'm sure PD does make small changes to their trim over time. The stilletto is an amazing canopy and a lot of people overlook it saying that it is old. I have seen people do some amazing things on stillettos with my own eyes. In this day and age I think people are to set on getting to a velocity or similar canopy for the wrong reasons and overlook the stilletto. I do know that the velo's manufactured today open signifigantly better than the velo's made a couple of years back. The velos made a couple of years back open better than the original velo's back when they first came out. That is all.

I really don't think that the everyone thing is really that hard. Is it to much to ask that people do not fly into the earth at a high rate of speed? No it is not, but the fact of the matter remains that people will make mistakes and pay the price for those mistakes. Very few accidents are caused by freak occurances of nature in this sport compared to those accidents that are cause by people doing stupid things. Unfortunately this whole pattern issue has come to light because some jumpers made mistakes and they and others paid the ultimate price. I'm sorry it happened ,but what so far has come of it? DZ.com has used up a lot of server space with people hashing it out. USPA has done nothing as of yet, some people have propsed BSR's but NOTHING has come of it. I think now the emotion of the events earlier this year is fading off and I hope that a solution can be made. There have been no more events of this nature since all of this started (thank god), so maybe reminding everyone to not do stupid things does help out a little.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'd rather have a polished product at the end, which has a much lesser chance of being the next 'Nova' -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- that is a very BOLD statement Ian. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Huh? Just saying I've done the 'testing' stuff before and didn't like it much - remember all the line/trim changes that I was messing with? "Are we in Englewood? I'll take the pepsi challenge with that amsterdam shit any day of the week!" Ok back on topic... Yes being a test jumper does suck balls because you never really know when bad things could happen, but I feel the excuse of factories needing to compare their test products against the rest of the field is bull shit. They can do all of the comparison that they need to do on non competition jumps. I am of the opinion that canopy manufactures are using the fact that their canopies win competitions as a selling point and that they will do a lot to keep on top. Is it fair for a company to tout that their product is the best because it wins all these competitions and then sell a different product to the masses? I don't think so. I'm not singleing any company out because I am sure they ALL do it. It would be more accurate for them to say that we win because we have employed the best pilot that day. Please do not take this as me starting a brand war because I am in NO WAY advocating that. I think all of the brands have nice canopies, and I have jumped many of them.

"i could have won the other rounds by jumping the prototype and then said it was a JVX but it would have been immoral and not a fair competition" I'm glad you feel that way Paul. That is very honest and goes with the spirit of the competition. It seems though that some people want to win so bad that they will bend the rules in their favor. I'm not saying that factory teams do this, but that it just sucks when there isn't an even playing field. I talked to Jim about this in length several weeks back. He mentioned that we was pushing for a class system like they have in 4-way, but that it got shot down because the manufacturers wanted to beable to hold records. This is what Jim told me. As far as a class system goes I think it is a great idea and here is how I would run it if I were king (I would sit on my glistening white porceline throne and dictate!): Intermediate class: This class would be all stock canopies and be run like the CPC. There would be weight restrictions and RDS restrictions. This class would be geared more for those starting out. The CPC seemed to be intended for that type of swooper but there is a lot of freaking talent in it now. Take the first year with Brian McNenny. He basicly blasted everyone out of the water. At that time coming in 1-3 was the only way to get onto the PST. This has since changed and there are other modes of getting out of the CPC. I like it now so that it doesn't clog up the CPC with amazing talent. Also, if you came in the top 10% of the competitors then you would have to move up in class then next year. Advanced: I would imagine that this class would still have weight restrictions but allow modified canopies that anyone on the free market could get to include RDS's, technorra, removal of stabilizers, ect. This class would have individuals who are not heavilly sponsored but still like to compete. I would compete in this class. I am not sponsered but I have made changes to my canopy to include technorra lines (stock length), 24" risers, and an RDS. I am really not eligable to wear weight except a pound or two so I really don't even bother. All records achieved in this class would be held against the intermediate and advanced classes. I feel this class would pretty much mirror the type of competitors in the PST with exception to the factory teams. Open Class: In this class there would be no weight restricitions or prototype / modification restrictions. All records acheived in this class would only be held against those competing in this class. This is only an idea and I am not the king of the swoop competitions so it pretty much is worthless I guess.

Cool. Thanks for the info!

How many skydiving companies have given a warranty? PD has pretty good customer service but many other ones out there let you know that you are pretty much on your own after the sale. I see your point about aftermarket parts and you can get some of them through Mel or some other experimental rigger, and I think that doesn't encompass a modified or prototype canopy. The class that I am arguing for would include canopies that have modifications that you or I could not easily get on the open market either because the canopy is totally different and not for sale or because the technology is proprietary to the company. The competition results of those canopies should not be held against the scores of those flying stock. PD is really good about releasing spot on products, but their R&D does take quite awhile. Other companies are quicker to release options or products. Look at PD's RDS. The RDS has really started to become mainstream in the swooping environment. PD folks have been using RDS's since 2000 if I recall correctly. There have been many changes to designs since then (the designs today are much safer than the ones in the beginning), but PD is just now semi endorsing a product (if you could call it that). The RDS Scott Roberts makes is what they use. PD doesn't even mention it on their website. They don't even mention 300 HMA (see link below) http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/PartsPriceList.pdf So you can see that PD is very carefull about what they endorse or sell to the general populous. There are some good aftermarket people out there but I'm sure they would have a hard time doing what some manufacturers do to their prototype / modified canopies.

"To what extent? I have a RDS, that's a modification. So are my long risers with a custom dive loop setup. I have a custom chest strap on my rig that is much longer then stock. " You are right Dave, those are modifications, but every Harry, Dick, and Tom can go out there and get those mods, so it eventually becomes an even playing field. Your loading is a natural advantage and I don't really have an answer for that one, but smaller people can wear some weight to catch up. If you downsize a lot then you would probably beging to go past a point of deminishing returns on performance because of loading. As far as cut off goes I think that anything not commercially available to the general populous should be put into a different class.

You say: "they held our load off for an hour to get tandems up and by the time we got to jump the wind went from 0 to 8mph head wind, but hey, that's competition i guess." I'm going to write my congressman about that and take a shit on Frank's desk just because that happened to you! God forbid that damn DZ send tandems when we are having a comp! I agree with you that the tandems were annoying at the last comp, and I think that just because they are a tandem that it doesn't automaticly grant them right of way but that is a different argument for me to get flamed on. Your accomplishments in the last comp were nothing short of stellar and you should be proud. The point I am making is that Jay (in my opinion) has an added advantage other than just skill with a modified canopy that your sponsors did not let you fly. Therefore (whether his xb was the same as everyone elses like Jay told me it was or if it was different) it should have put him in a different class because no one else could readily go out and purchase the same setup. Sure you can argue the fact that we can go and change canopies like your friend did with his VX, but we cannot go out and match the canopy that Jay or Maha were jumping because we have no idea what they changed. I'm not faulting PD for keeping that information classified, but I strongly feel that experimental or modified canopies that the general populous cannot easily go out and recreate should compete and be scored in a different class for prize money and records. You say: " -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jay set the world record with weight and a modded canopy(674' or something like that). How many people have come close to that on a "stock" canopy? Stu you are doing really well with 475' but I have not seen you get anywhere near 674'. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ok, well lets strap on 80 #'s and break the record. hell, lets make it one of the events at the next PST after the pro/am." According to the rules we cannot do that. The weight system was enacted and if we did do that (successfully) it would mean nothing. Let's look at it from a different angle (Grant's Angular Theorum is as follows: The angle of the dangle is inversly proportionate to the speed of the beat). What is to stop someone from putting a slider on a paraglider, exiting the aircraft and deploying the paraglider, making gates and flying 900' to set a new world record? As long as I didn't strap on weight to exceede the weight limits, as long as I exited the jump aircraft, and as long as I made gates I would be legal as far as the letter of the law. Now is that fair for you or the rest of the competitors if I went and did that? In my opinion "NO". Does that skirt the intent of the rule? In my opinion "YES" and so does competing with canopies that are not readily available to the general competition populous. You say: "The only unfair advantage i can really see jay having is that he has 6000+ jumps. if others put in the time and money to develop their skills then they'll also have that advantage, but when it comes down to it i personally only know of a few people that are willing to do that." I would not go so far as to call Jay's experience level an unfair advantage. The dude is talented and there is no doubt about that, but so are many other people to include you. The fact of the matter is, experience can be obtained by anyone over time. An XB canopy can only obtained by PD deeming you to be worthy of jumping a modified / prototype canopy. I'm sure PD doesn't deem me worthy and I am sure my skill level is not that of yours or most of th eother competitors out there, but I would really like an even playing field where these competitions are a measure of ones skill and technique instead of who has the more effecient wing. True, anyone can be beat and if you have the ubber wing that no one else has it still will not help you if you are having a shitty comp, but if you are doing well then the ubber wing will compliment the skill of the pilot. Whenever PD does release the new itteration of the Velocity I am sure it will be an awesome wing, and I look forward to trying it out so I can be competitive with YOU!

You say: "how about if the z-brace or JSX canopies were out but were $5000 or $6000, is that accessable to everyone? i don't think so." I say it is accesablle to everyone because they could go out and buy it. The onus is now on the consumer to decide if they want to spend that amount of skrilla on a canopy or not. It seems as if people are currently balking about buy a $3,000 JVX Sail canopy, so at 5k it may be to much of a price point but at least common people will have the ability to purchase the same wing. You say: "there have been other companies besides PD that have had non-available canopies flown and win in competition. the JSX has been flown in competition, XAOS's with cascaded HMA have been flown in competition, and i think most of us know the PDFT has flown prototype canopies in competition." Correct. Many of the factories are using the comps to judge how well the modified or prototype wing racks up against the rest of the competition and that is a good way to do it. I maintain that those wings should be in a different class when it comes to records and prize money. Did you not feel bad when you came in second and got a hole handfull of damnit from Jim as far as prize money goes? If Jay had been forced to be in a different class then you would be about 6k richer my friend. There are certain things that I as a non sponsered person can do to even the competition such as going to Mel and getting blue lines and RDS's, but I cannot get the same trim or easily mod the line attachment points. Jay even said that sewing the excess binding tape into the canopy reduces 48" of binding tape drag, so therefore that is a modified canopy that I as a commoner cannot get. I agree with you that all the mods in the world do not always add up to an ultimate canopy. Those mods may fuck the openings, and I would not want to be doing AFF with a canopy that opens like shite! So being the lanyard of the speer is often better as far as everyday performance may be th eplace to be, but that is skirting the issue of having seperate classes for modified canopies. Jay set the world record with weight and a modded canopy(674' or something like that). How many people have come close to that on a "stock" canopy? Stu you are doing really well with 475' but I have not seen you get anywhere near 674'. That is not saying Jay cannot be beat, but he has had an unfair advantage against the rest of us "Stock" swoopers. I only use Jay as an example as I am sure that the canopies that Team Extreme jumps are a little different than stock. Jim has told me that they are different, but he has always been fairly forthcoming about the changes that they are making when I have asked. If you noticed at the last comp Team Extream had blue lines... I asked Jim about this, he said they were testing the UV coating. I asked Jim about the containers with the belly bands. He seems to think that body position has a lot to do with drag reduction. I think they are on to something there. Nick and those dudes (when they had a good run) were fairly competitive with Maha and Jay, but you did not see a lot of other competitors within 5' of their runs. All of the Fastrax guys were landing within a small radius of eachother but their distance runs were not as long as Nick's or Jay's. So in my opinion that allone should be a good argument for having seperate classes for modified and stock canopies. The CRW people are very demanding of their canopy specifications for record attempts and they check line lengths, slider types, pilot chute configurations, material age, and jumpsuit types, so I feel that we as a swooping community can only add credibility to our self by creating different classes. Diatribe complete!

I have always thought that there should be a class for canopies that are not available to the public. I also feel that any records with modified (and by modified I mean canopies that regular jumper could not easily obtain or change our existing canopies to match) canopies should not be held against those of us who do not have access to the factory resources.

"And how many jumpers carry a radar gun in their kit bag? Sparky" I do.

I found that it didn't really make a difference in the swoop. Goos technique made much more of a difference in the length of my swoop. You can stitch the rears up a little too if you want to get rid of some of that difference. I did notice some differences in openings though. Your mileage may very.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It really gets to me when a newbie pokes fun at me, I just want to lay them out. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Just do it. They'll get the message. They may never learn about safe canopy selection, but they'll learn not to run their mouth in your direction. I suggest a good and swift kick to the nuts. It is actually theraputic for you. Try it once on some douche and let me know how much better you feel! The spectre is a great canopy and the 210 is nothing to complain about. You are doing the right thing by sticking with thte bigger wing, and when you do decide to downsize you will be a better pilot on the smaller wind by having more experience.

"we generally don't get rides" Maybe they just don't like you...