sinker

Actually, Northern Turkey (Istanbul) lies in Europe. And the city of Istanbul (formerly Constantinople) has a pretty strong Christian background. Although it is a Muslim country it is a totally seculiar regime, much closer to Western European regimes than Middle Eastern ones. Also, it is hard to picture the Trojans as being different from the Atheans, isn't it. Thanks for the correction... I'm interested in learning more about this. -the artist formerly known as sinker

I expect a thorough discussion of the faults of orthodox Judaism (which are many) at a pertinent time*** More self-congratulatory triumphalism coming from the Professor. You're so much better than everyone else, John. I'm sorry I've failed to see it all this time. Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa, Mea Maxima Culpa. -the artist formerly known as sinker

I thought you already WERE enlightened, Professor. Again, the Church will be here, "meddling," long after you're gone... how old are you again? Can you list one thing the Church has done that has personally affect your life in a negative way (self-induced rises in blood pressure over issues you disagree w/ don't count). I don't give a damn if you have an "interest," I just don't like how angry and hateful you seem to be about it. Yeah, I know, I'm now guilty of resorting to sarcasm and all that, I just figured I'd speak at your level... Stay angry, John, stay angry. It's REALLY good for your health, spiritually and physically. -the artist formerly known as sinker

you sound pretty patronizing to me, bill, but again you are misunderstanding me. everyone is welcome in the catholic church. I never said you WEREN'T welcome, just don't come and visit our house, hoping to rearrange the furniture. it won't do. -the artist formerly known as sinker

me too... i've had the mossberg 500 w/ pistol grip, 7 rounds in the tube and one up the pipe. all black. a bit rough, but totally realiable and very affordable. got me a surefire too... incredibly bright. and good warranty too, my two year old got the thing all wet, corroded the batteries and messed up the tail cap... surefire replaced it no questions asked, for free. -the artist formerly known as sinker

Indeed. If the EU was a religious organization, I would understand. But it's not. Edited to add link thanks for the link... interesting read... can't say I know much about the EU and all that, but I do wonder why Turkey, a country NOT physically located in Europe wants to join the EU? Are there other Non-European countries in the EU? -the artist formerly known as sinker

Twisting words, Bill, that's all you're doing. I don't desire that anyone leave the Church but instead, quit w/ the arrogance of believing that a man w/ your 30 or 40 years of experience on this earth have more collective wisdom and knowledge than the adherants of an institution that has been around for 2000 years and has survived every attempt at making it fall or "bend to the spirit of the age." I'd much rather you suspend your critical, judgemental, bigotted attitude about the Church and try to really understand her position. I'd really rather you be reconciled to the religion and God of your youth, but maybe you don't consider that a possibility. If you don't want to, fine... then, leave. B/c She's not going to change for you, kallend or any other. -the artist formerly known as sinker

If you would like to define that as something else, say "veneration" instead of "worship" that's fine. They mean about the same thing. Except, apparently, Vatican II. There WILL be a Vatican III, and many of the precepts you hold dear now may change (again.) Will you then leave the church? That's funny in a thread in which you said we should all aspire to the ideals that Christ set forth. *** Quit trying to accuse me of hypocrisy. I firmly believe that we should all aspire to the ideals that Christ set forth. However, if YOU DON'T WANT TO, do it SOMEWHERE ELSE, not in the Church that I love so dearly. Is that more clear, Bill? It's so tiring to have people like you try and twist my words. -the artist formerly known as sinker

Start with sexual abuse within the church. The Vatican and other local Catholic authorities shamefully tried to sweep it under the rug. Once again, I have no issue whatsoever with the Catholic faith and its followers. I have an issue with the head of the church and its stance on certain matters. Definitely not aimed at your and other people's faith. *** agreed, 100%... the sex abuse scandal was so utterly shameful and poorly handled that I just want to scream. and as a result, the reputation of the WHOLE Catholic Church, not just those members of the hierarchy and the pedophiliac priests, haas suffered tremendously. Now, my priest friends tell me that it's hard to walk around in public w/ a roman collar on, b/c of all the persecution they get. some have been physically assaulted. most just suffer verbal insults, but still. And it's the Church's own fault. It is going to take decades or even centuries to heal the hurt. what's the deal w/ not wanting Turkey to join the EU? Is that something Ratzinger said? -the artist formerly known as sinker

first off, girl, you said it. excellent post. second, you WON'T hear that level of "jew-bashing" b/c for one, Catholicism IS the last really acceptable predjudice and two, Jewish people have done well to stand up for themselves and not allow people like Kallend et al to f*ck with them. -the artist formerly known as sinker

Why do you care, professor? No one forces anyone to join a church. Yeah, John, I'd really REALLY like you to answer this question. Why do you care so much about this, that you'll continually through insults, untruths, and bigoted remarks at the Church and her members? -the artist formerly known as sinker

Then it shouldn't get involved in contemporary matters? By taking stances on contemporary temporal matters, it naturaly invites to criticism, good or bad. Whether it likes it or not, the church is playing a role in today's social matters. BTW: The statement on the status of Turkey vis a vis the EU had no business being made. I don't know what the Turkey comment means... Yes, the Church should be involved in contemporary matters, b/c Her members live in the contemporary period. And contemporary mores, customs, beliefs, (or ghastly lack thereof) have an inpact on Her members. The Church NEEDS to stand in and emphatically denounce those things that violate the laws of God and do harm to the human person, such as abortion, etc. To fail to do so would be negligence in the worst form. There are basic, fundamental truths that transcend time, place, ethnicity, culture and those truths are what the Church stands for. And the Church will NOT stop proclaiming those truths, much to the annoyance of those who hate her. Like I said to Kallend, She'll be around long after her detractors are gone... for that I'm very grateful. -the artist formerly known as sinker

you're such a broken record. it's quite boring, really. move along, nothing new to see here... -the artist formerly known as sinker

There's a time and a place for everything. When your child needs to be nursed, it's time. *** That's right. And be prepared. -the artist formerly known as sinker

I agree with you. However, since we live in a time where there ARE people who think there is something wrong, we should at least try and be a little sensitive to them by being discreet if possible. If it's not possible, I say whip it out and feed junior. That is more important than someone's hangups (although some of the same people w/ this hangup probably has no problem at all w/ certain fashions that entail most of the breast being exposed.) -the artist formerly known as sinker

he is not trying to disallow anyone the "choice" to believe whatever they want to believe. what he is saying is that Catholicism is NOT like a cafeteria, where someone can come in and pick and choose what they wish to believe in and still call themselves "a good Catholic." That is, by definition, a BAD Catholic. And it makes no damn sense for someone to try to change a religion that has made it VERY CLEAR that on fundamentals of faith, morals, doctrine, there will be NO change, no refutation, no going back and saying, oops, sorry, we were wrong about that whole abortion thing. So, go find another church! -the artist formerly known as sinker

You keep saying "the church considers women to be incapable of representing Christ" then saying "the church doesn't consider women to be incapable." Either they are or they aren't. *** I don't know if you're purposely being dense for the sake of arguing or if you just aren't reading what I'm saying. I never said the church considers women to be incapable of representing Christ. I said that women are incapable of representing Christ AS A PRIEST. That's a significant piece you left out. The gender of a woman, and the symbolism contained therein, is as a receiver, as someone who is inherently receptive to receiving life. That is why "woman" is the symbol of the Church. That is why the church is called "she." It says something profound about God's relationship (as Father) to His people as well as about Christ to his BRIDE - feminine. In that way, we are all, men and women, at some fundamental level, feminine in that we can only RECEIVE the life that God the Father gives us. (Still think Catholicism is misogynistic?) Having a man stand in the place of Christ as a priest provides consistent symbolism of what it means to be a Father and a Groom, someone who reaches out to another, someone who infuses life into another. Having a woman in that role confuses the symbolism. That doesn't mean they are any less than man. In fact, in their role as receivers, as life bearers, women are more adequate, are more capable, are better at doing what they do in the liturgy and other functions in the Church than men. Human men, even though it is symbolically proper for them to represent God/Christ in the priest, in their humanity they are GROSSLY inadequate to really do the job of priest justice. And by the way, Catholic's don't WORSHIP Mary. She is venerated as the First Christian, as the highest Christian, as the person who best demonstrates what it means to receive the message of Christ and live it out. Mary is the quintessential (sp?) symbol for the church... and this just further demonstrates why men are priests and women aren't... see the symbolism spoken of above. And it wasn't a "crap shoot" with regards to Jesus coming as a male. God doesn't "role the dice" that way. How absurd. Having Jesus come as a man, incarnate THROUGH a WOMAN makes perfect sense! That is why Mary symbolizes the Church, who RECEIVES Christ through grace and the sacraments. And that is why the Church is led by a man, the Pope, the Father, and, in individual parishes, by men, priests, who represent the life-giving love of God the Father. I don't get why this is so hard to understand, Bill. In effect, we are all called to be more feminine, like Mary, docile and responsive to be able to respond to the call of the Father. This is true even for priests who must also represent Christ the Bridegroom and God the Father. Bill, have you read anything of the Catechism? Or the document "Mulieris Dignitatem" ("On the Dignity and Vocation of Women") by JPII? Or Paul Quay's "The Christian Meaning of Human Sexuality?" -the artist formerly known as sinker

I have to agree with Tonto on this one. As for my understanding, I was raised Catholic and attended mass twice a week until I was 18. The church is hideously outdated in its stance on the role of women in the faith, among other things. It's not just "non-Catholics" that feel that way, as I've had discussions with a friend of my father's, who happens to be a priest, on this. He thinks that women should be allowed to be priests as well. This, among other things, is why I've pretty much severed all ties to the church as my belief structure was changed by what I was exposed to. It's not the job of the church to be "up-to-date." They never claimed to be nor tried to be. They are putting forth what they believe to be timeless, unchangeable, immutable truths. If you don't believe it, fine, but I'm tired of people being so damn insulting about it. If you don't like it or agree w/ it, fine, state it and move on. But don't call my faith and the faith of 1.1 billion rubbish. Want to be a woman priest? Fine... join a frickin church that will let you. Quit trying to change a church wherein MOST of the faithful don't WANT it's rules to change. (And if you think that simply b/c some loud-mouthed leftists in the US and other parts of the Western World want women priests or acceptance of birth control or abortion consitutes a significant majority, you're sadly mistaken and quite delusional) Going back to the point, trying to wed the tenents of a faith to the fads and shifting ideologies of the times is one of the worst things that can happen. That's one reason why there are so many different Christian denominations now, over 26,000 at last count. -the artist formerly known as sinker

What's that saying....? Oh, yes, it goes something like "Judge not, lest ye' be judged." oh, so it's ok for him to say insulting, insenstive things, but I can't be sarcastic? ok, use the tenents of my faith, which you admit to not believing in, and beat me w/ them. nice. -the artist formerly known as sinker

It's called faith Kallend. Chris oh chris, I think he is too enlightened to be bothered with issues so puerile as faith. [sarcasm off] -the artist formerly known as sinker

Seriously, I find your repeated attempts to justify the subjugation of women laughable. *** glad to provide you w/ some entertainment. you're not the first to fail to try and understand the Catholic perspective on this. All you can jump to is accusations of subjugation. Your understanding of the Catholic mentality is shallow at best. -the artist formerly known as sinker

I really find it hard to imagine that anyone actually believes this rubbish. *** And I find it hard to imagine that people like you can be so insensitive to the beliefs of others. Thanks for calling our beliefs rubbish. I'll keep praying for you... you obviously need it. -the artist formerly known as sinker

what does DILLIGAF mean? -the artist formerly known as sinker

we don't agree on things Catholic, but we do on Guns! That's sweet. Nothing like the sound of a 12 gauge being racked. -the artist formerly known as sinker

And thus a woman, by your own argument, is incapable of being Christ-like enough to be a priest. The church considers them incapable. That's not really debatable. *** Again, you're misunderstanding. Considering your leftist bent, I'm not surprised. We are ALL called to be Christ-like. The most Christ-like person I ever met was Mother Theresa. Men, in a special way, can represent Christ in the ministerial capacity as a priest that women can't. Again, it's analogous to men throwing a hissy fit at God for not being able to conceive and bear children! Dammit God, you're a freaking sexist b/c you created me w/o a uterus!! It's just absurd! But in our modern society, with sex and gender roles being as confused and screwed up as they are, it's no wonder that so few in the US understand the Church on this. The priest is called to be, above all, the SERVANT of the people of God. He is to lead by being the servant. All too often however, priests have lorded their perceived "power" over others. That's abhorant. Jesus was male. The apostles He chose were male--all of them. Thus, priests are males. It's the whole apolstolic succession thing... since God came as man AS A MAN, do you mean to accuse God of being sexist? well, that's assuming you believe that Jesus is God and that's another conversation for "enlightened" former Catholics... Underneath what you consider to be a sexist/misogynistic practice, what the Church actually teaches about women is that they are the "crown jewel of creation." Man was made out of dirt. The lowest of matter. Woman was made out of material from another rational being! And woman was made LAST!! God saved the best for last!! Fundamentally that is what the Church believes about women. Men as priests teach us something about God. Women teach us, men and women, what it is to be created, to be receptive, to be loved and put on a pedestal. It's just too bad the church does such a bad job at vocalizing this. -the artist formerly known as sinker