sinker

What does your church tell her to do? It's an easy question. *** you know the answer AND you're changing the topic. how considerate of you... goodnight professor... -the artist formerly known as sinker

my church IS caring. more than you care to open your eyes to realize b/c you too damn stuck in events that occurred hundreds and hundreds of years ago. pathetic. we've had this discussion before. i don't care to have it again w/ someone of your ilk who doesn't give a damn about honest dialogue. -the artist formerly known as sinker

Rubbish: "This method requires special education and training in recognizing the body's changes as well as a great deal of continuous and committed effort. About 15 to 20 pregnancies occur over 1 year out of 100 women using this method (for those who are properly trained)." From the US National Institutes for Health Perfect for your agenda in 3rd world countries. Now please cite YOUR reference for the 1% failure rate. *** i will cite them... but not yet... it's midnight and time for bed. the Catholic Church's agenda for 3rd world countries is to free them from disease, poverty, abuse, murder, genocide, drugs, war, ignorance. this method does not take special education. it's very very simple. i don't know who at NIH is writing that trash, but it's been shown that women w/ the intelligence of an 8 year old can learn NFP. and it does take committed, continuous effort... but not much more than remembering to take a damn pill everyday. giving BC just gives license for people to be irresponsible w/ their reproductive capabilities. how about teaching them freedom instead of slavery to unnatural and often harmful devices and chemicals? yeah, that's just too f*cking hard... takes too much work. take the easy road, kallend, it's so much less toil. -the artist formerly known as sinker

Of women who use fertility awareness for birth control, 20 to 25 out of 100 will become pregnant in the first year of use." *** again, the question de jour is, how strictly did these couples practice the techniques? were they TRYING to avoid pregnancy? and it DOESN'T take good organization or record keeping... but it DOES take observation of your body AND the cooperation of your partner. Last time I checked, that was a GOOD Thing. -the artist formerly known as sinker

According to the US Food and Drug Administration the failure rate of NFP is 20%, compared to 1% for the pill.*** see my other post about the "lack of agenda" that the FDA has and unlike you, they are an agency I work with day in and day out. NFP only works if YOU work IT. And when it's adhered to scrictly it's efficacy rivals the pill. Search for the studies, professor, you'll quickly find them. -the artist formerly known as sinker

How would you describe an organization that prevents women from getting effective health care? I think "prey" is quite appropriate. *** prevents? hardly. The Catholic Church does nothing to STOP people from getting artificial contraception. Last I looked, you could get AC practically ANYWHERE. The Church certainly steps in and says you SHOULDN'T give it, and it's health care facilities shouldn't give it, but the church doesn't stop sally and jane from going to anothe facility. I'll get you some better sources on NFP effectiveness... most sources that site such a high failure rate are not factoring in the pregnancies that resulted when the couple did not follow the rules strictly. But hey... it's FAR easier just to take a pill... take the easy road... make the woman a slave... just take a pill and you'll be just like a man... you can screw w/o consequences! at least until you have a breakthrough pregnancy... then maybe an abortion... or you develop breast cancer... or have any other untoward serious side effect of the pill b/c you think fertility is a "medical condition" requiring treatment. -the artist formerly known as sinker

Agreed, but this isn't the forum for it. then get it moved. -the artist formerly known as sinker

what is your source? i've seen study after study where the numbers are 97-99%... of course, the success of the method is 100% contingent on faithfulness to the method. and would you STOP using such inflammatory remarks such as "prey on their ignorance?" you are only showing what an insensitive, bigotted person you are. (not to mention it's just infantile and annoying) -the artist formerly known as sinker

well said. -the artist formerly known as sinker

I always thought gender-specific bathrooms were silly. Even when I was little I hated waiting in the women's line if the men's line was empty (I even snuck in a few times at a very early age! ) men's restrooms are starting to get overcrowded too, but not like women's... why don't the damn architects design the "facilities" more in favor of women? It's not like overcrowded "girl's" rooms is a new phenom... -the artist formerly known as sinker

So no woman on the rhythm method has ever got pregnant. NOT. but that excludes a very large number of women, especially those with marginal nutrition, who often have very irregular and unpredictable cycles Humbug*** Those pics I found of you online? I thought I saw a resemblance to the grinch. -the artist formerly known as sinker

Oh, I can see how that will be successful. I have an equally good idea: lets prevent crime by telling criminals to behave themselves. Bound to work. No more burglar alarms, armed police, or CCW holders will be necessary. *** IT IS successful. In my family's life and in the lives of many, many other families who follow the Church's teaching on this. More on this in a minute. And your analogy is fatally flawed... you're equating sex and fertility w/ criminal activity? How obscene. Again, I BELIEVE, unlike you, that people are capable, with God's grace, to gain control over their appetites and passions and subject them to a higher good. It's called self-control, self-mastery, self-possession. AND, going back to your silly analogy, the best form of governance IS self-governance. An EXTERNAL locus of control is ALWAYS grossly inadequate in controlling human behavior, either through law-enforcement or artificial birth control. The ONLY LASTING way for humans to live in harmony -- with themselves and w/ others -- is through an INTERNAL locus of control, wherein the higher faculties of human nature, i.e. intelligence, will, reason, govern the rest of the person. Getting really personal here... I have 4 children. The first two are seperated from the second two by 5 years. This spacing was done intentionally, through the use of Natural Family Planning, which involves observing natural signs of female fertility and identifying the point in time when ovulation occurs so as to facilitate or prevent conception. My wife came down w/ a chronic illness that dictated that we needed to postpone having more kids until either she stabilized, got better, or until we could figure out if we should even HAVE anymore. Well, through the use of NFP and an immense period of self-control wherein abstinence during fertile periods was required, we were able to postpone having more kids until we could safely have more, w/o jeopardizing her health. And now, through the same principles of NFP, now that my wife is more healthy, we have two more beautiful children. Kallend, it works. It's good for marriage, it's good for women (as opposed to those horribly strong and unhealthy BC pills, which recently have been linked to breast cancer, as well as stroke, heart attack, etc.), and it's good for men, in that they are almost forced to develop non-genital ways of loving their wives when pregnancy should be avoided. In divulging very personal, private information about my life and that of my family, I humbly request that it be respected. Please do not respond with sarcasm, negativity, or predjudicial remarks. You don't have to agree w/ me, but please respect what I've just written. Many thanks. -the artist formerly known as sinker

Michele, if I didn't know you as I do, I'd say you were Catholic. Your response said it so well.... but I have just one question... WHERE THE HELL ARE YOU??? I'VE been trying to call your cell... and I've pm'ed you... CALL ME soon... -the artist formerly known as sinker

haven't forgotten about your thoughtful post... just haven't had time to respond to it... i'll really try soon, if I can squeeze some time. (I know, I'm replying to Kallend, but he's easy) m -the artist formerly known as sinker

that shows ME that you don't know much about the female fertility cycle. Let's start at the beginning, go back and read some basic sex ed books and come back when you're ready for a real discussion. M'k? There ARE times when a woman is infertile. True, there may be that RARE break-through ovulation during menses or during phase III or even phase I, but it is so very rare. Even more rare than getting pregnant on the pill. Which happens more often than people care to admit. The only gaurantee of not getting pregnant is to not have sex. But people w/ your mentality go for the birth control system... which all too often fails... oh wait, then there's that "fail safe" option of abortion... which has many "side effects" of it's own... it's a Pandora's [Pill]Box. Oh and that abortion pill, RU486? It's been positively linked to TWO deaths... has the FDA pulled it? No. Changed it's labelling? No. Has ANYONE died from a Cox-2 inhibitor yet? Not that anyone knows of, yet anyway, but oh, the pressure to pull those suckers... HUGE... No, the FDA has NO agenda folks, none at all... -the artist formerly known as sinker

telling poor women to have lots of babies disparaging preventive methods for fatal diseases like AIDS*** Even those who push condoms so damn much are forced to admit that the ONLY way to prevent the spread of AIDS is abstinence, chastity education, monogamous sex w/ uninfected partners. Sure, condoms will LESSEN the spread. But LESSENING ISN"T GOOD ENOUGH!!! When will people start believing in the inherent goodness of mankind and his/her ability to act in a way that befits his/her inherent dignity?!? THAT is what the church's teaching stands for. Not this crazy, stupid mentality that says, "ok, you may have AIDS but I want to have sex w/ you... I'll wear a condom that, in some cases, has a 1 in 10 chance of breaking. Or that has an X in Y chance of allowing some of your sexual fluids of contacting mine. It may not be Russian Roulette w/ a six shooter, maybe it's more like a hundred shooter. Still. Shitty odds all the way around. The Church refuses to accept any less of humanity than what it is capable of. It's a shame you're so willing to settle... -the artist formerly known as sinker

Murder is murder, even if sanctioned by the Roman church. No statute of limitations. YOUR church murdered tens of thousands of people, and no-one should EVER forget that. Explain how YOUR church is better than any other genocidal regime. *** No one every should forget, Kallend, for once, you are right. My Church is NOT a genocidal regime. While the Inquisition killed many people, it no longer does. Otherwise, you would probably be ashes by now. Thank the Church for it's mercy. Do you hate all Germans simply b/c it's government was responsible for killing millions of Jews and others, even Catholics? Do you hate Americans for killing Indians? Do you hate yourself b/c people of YOUR race killed blacks in the 20th century? -the artist formerly known as sinker

Hmmm, I just looked really really hard and couldn't find a single reference to the evils of condoms in the New Testament. Maybe you can tell me in which gospel Christ takes issue with them. I couldn't find anything about burning heretics at the stake in Jesus's teachings, either. the word "Trinity" isn't in there either, yet all Christians believe in a triune God. The WORD itself doesn't need to be there in order for principles found therein to be applied to modern problems. And the Word of God DOES reference birth control. I'll find the texts and give them to you after I attend a party to celebrate the elevation to the Papacy of Papa Ratzi. Good lord, kallend, the Inquisition was hundreds of years ago. Get the hell over it. -the artist formerly known as sinker

wayne: i appreciate your post, it's very well thought out and I'll attempt at addressing it when I return from Mass. peace, m -the artist formerly known as sinker

oh give me a break Zen, so many people on here, like me, see your the crap you spew as very hateful. not blind huh? whatever. what "facts" does the Catholic Church have issues with? If you have an issue w/ the Catholic Church, you have an issue w/ Christ. arrogance. pure and simple. you already have a preconceived PREDJUDICE (ie bigotted mindset) that my knowledge of Catholicism is BLINDED by my belief in it, whereas your preconceptions, misunderstandings, and HATRED make you TRULY objective, n'est-ce pas? that is why it's impossible to talk to you in a serious way. you're too sarcastic and not at all open to a serious dialogue. just b/c you can't admit it doesn't mean it's not true. -the artist formerly known as sinker

'catholic school girl' is an even larger archetype nice PA... very christlike.. i can see the Church's teachings at work in your life *** Call it a PA if you like. Christ himself didn't shy away from calling people Satan, hypocrites, and the like. I'm just calling it like I see it, Zen. You are a bigot. If it get's me warned or banned, so be it. It's just a pity you are too blind to see it for yourself. You don't offer substantive arguments, like Wayne is doing, you just offer inflammatory, predjudicial remarks that, at root, are designed to insult and hurt. Your inability to admit to this is nothing but a sign of fundamental immaturity. Oh, I'm sorry, is that another PA? -the artist formerly known as sinker

>>yes, the second one there was much better. Have you a copy of Gun Facts? If not, get yourselv a copy at... http://www.gunfacts.info/ many leftist gun grabbers would do well to get themselves copies as well.... -the artist formerly known as sinker

But I do not believe that anything better than Cereals and Campbell should be the privilege of the spiritual world. Not saying that it is necessarily what you meant, but that's how I read it. *** they were just pithy slogans those products used, and i think the descriptors were appropo (sp?) considering how cheepened sex has become in our culture. -the artist formerly known as sinker

You came up with stuff like "The Immaculate Conception" all on your own! Come on, you can't expect anyone to believe that! *** actually, if you read the line of reasoning that led to the belief in the immaculate conception, it's very reasonable. and there are scriptural references that allude to it as well, but that's another thread... (zenister, if you're reading, save your breath and spare us the comments that my faith has nothing to do w/ reason.) -the artist formerly known as sinker

Now you're telling me! I've gotta try that love making thing one day. if you never have, you really should! it's the most incredible thing! i know you're being fecitious (sp?) but really, it's quite incredible. people think the church is down on sex, but if they only new how sex is really viewed by the Church, minds would change. Read JP II's book, before he was Pope and was called by his birth name Karol Wojtyla (Voy-tee-wa), Love and Responsibility. It's mind-blowing. sex isn't good... campbell's soup is good. sex isn't great... kellogg's cereal is great. sex is... sacred. and engaging in it should be a sublime, ecstatic, deeply religious experience. -the artist formerly known as sinker