olemisscub

The truth is probably something so completely random i.e. Cooper hitchhiked a ride from someone and as he was getting out of the car thought it would be cute to hand the guy a bundle of cash as a thanks. Driver is like "WTF?" but drives off. Later as he is driving down Lower River Rd he hears the news, freaks out, and throws the bundle out the window near the river. Spring flooding pushes it along to its eventual spot on Tena Bar.

There are many options. I don't even like speculating on Tena Bar. It boggles the mind and is a waste of time, in my opinion. It doesn't get us any closer to Cooper. However, words matter. Tina's 302 says "bank type bands" were on the cash. So if there were no paper bands on the cash, then that means that either Tina Mucklow or SAC Harold Campbell or SA Hinterliter, who would have dictated their notes to a secretary, refer to rubber bands as "bank type bands". That seems unlikely. Also, the fact that it says "bank TYPE bands" sounds like a direct quote. If that's the case, then that quote came directly from Tina mere hours after she saw the cash. Thus, we are left with two possibilities: - A 22 year old from Philadelphia calls rubber bands "bank type bands"; or - The cash had paper bank bands on them. It's important to remember that the paper bands and the rubber bands are NOT mutually exclusive. It's not an either or proposition. Perhaps Tina just failed to mention the rubber bands and we don't have a 302 where they discuss the bundling with rubber bands. Given the physical evidence (money had rubber bands) and the contemporaneous 302's (bank bands/straps/bank type bands), it's reasonable to assume that they had both.

I'm attaching a PDF that has all of these particular 302's in them regarding the money and how it was packaged and transported. NickyB reached out to Tina's "handler", Dawn Bierschwal and she gave a dumb answer in response. Also posting Nicky asking Al Lee's secretary about it. About the paper bands leaving marks, as I posted previously, Chaucer reproduced Kaye's "will it float" experiment with a bundle since Tom used a packet. The thought being that maybe the fanning out of the bills is what caused the money to sick. As mentioned, the bundle floated about 7 minutes and then sank. He immediately pulled it out of the water and set it out to dry. A day later the paper bank bands were already disintegrating. I don't believe the paper bands would have lasted long enough to left any shadows. Similarly, what tiny fragments of paper could have still been left is likely to have escaped the Ingrams' notice. Why would they have cared about such a thing? Bank-302s.pdf

My understanding is that the "no identifying marks" line by the Bank manager/security officer is a reference to the fact that employees will put their initials on bands when they make a packet.

Seems like whenever Bill tells the story he sort of puts his hand on his neck and rubs up and down. To me that indicates more of age related turkey "gobble" as opposed to a double chin. The statement about "flabby skin" also seems to hint at more of the "gobble" as opposed to the "double chin" that someone who is overweight might have. Cooper was also seemingly a fit looking individual, so that would seemingly lower the likelihood of this being a weight induced double chin.

Finally figured out this 302.

You really think paper is still going to be there 9 years later? An experiment was done recently to see if a bundle would float (as opposed to a packet) and the paper straps were already tearing apart and disintegrating after being in the water for only 7 minutes.

Am I disagreeing with you? I want to rule out the possibility that there may have been post-hoc assumptions about the rubber bands due to the money find. If the physical evidence has rubber bands on it, then sure, it seems safe to assume that the money was rubber banded, even absent proof that it was given to Cooper that way. However, I'd like to rule out that this is a post-hoc assumption by finding pre-TB evidence. If I never find it, then oh well, I guess I'll go to my grave assuming that it was rubber banded AND paper banded. Which is what Himmy says on Unsolved Mysteries. Tosaw says this as well.

That's Tina.

Thanks for the clarity on Baker's statements. I'd still like to find a pre-Tena Bar statement about the rubber band bundling. I'm not disbelieving of it. It's always been, and still is, my understanding that the money consisted of banded packages that were bundled. Perhaps you can find something? I've come up empty the past few days. I believe if you are only seeing the Beeson interview, you are missing some context as well. Most of our discussion about the paper bands is centered around Ulis' resistance to the idea that there were paper bands on the money. It's basically been the entire Facebook group vs. Ulis the past few days because it's his contention that Tina was referring to rubber bands when she said "bank type bands". Of course, literally everyone else thinks that's silly. But he's entitled to his opinion and that's fine. Nevertheless, most of our discussion about the paper banding was a reference to this ongoing Group vs. Ulis fight about it.

I'm assuming this reference to pipe size refers to suction dredging?

We agree 100%. Chaucer and I just did an hour and a half Facebook live about this. Wherever the money came from, it was NOT buried on Tena Bar IMO. We know the packets don't float (Tom's experiment), so Chaucer just did an experiment with 300 bills in three packets bundled together just to see if it would make any difference (the bands keeping the bills from fanning out). His bundled floated in the tub for about 7 minutes before submerging.

I'm not sure how that's even a question for some people. Clearly, however it got there, by human force or natural means, it was three packets of $2000 each held together with rubber bands as a single bundle. The evidence of the band bands would have long disintegrated (presumably). That's just thin paper.

I get it. I'll ask Larry and Tom about it. fwiw, here are agents describing the condition of Mac's money when it was found.

I get what you're saying now. However, I just don't see what difference it would make to a hijacker to see a rubber banded bundle of 3 packets and then another rubber banded bundle of 4 packets? If they still have the bank bands on them then they may as well all be thrown in a bag willy-nilly like so:

Holding it back from whom? Themselves? We have the 302's now.

I'm not following. You're saying the bundles were random. I'm not seeing anything pre-Tena Bar mentioning bundles or bundling of the cash. The only actual evidence is "packets" of 100 bills held together with bank bands. Whether these WERE bundled, we can assume so given the TB find. However, there's nothing at all about bundling pre-Tena Bar in the actual evidence.

I know what the bloody FBI said POST-HOC money find. I know what the FBI told the press. I know what Carr said on the DZ. I know what Himmy and Tosaw said. I've read the exact same books and 302's you have. I'm asking for PRE-Tena Bar evidence so we can put this to bed.

Thanks for the pro-tip but I'm already aware of what "bundles" are. My assumption has always been that the money given Cooper looked something like below, which is from an experiment I did the other day with 300 bills. There is a POST-Tena Bar statement from an FBI official saying that they bundled them to make it appear "hastily gathered." But who did this and when? When did they have time to do this? The bank officials don't mention doing this. Milnes makes no mention of this. He just says he looked in the bag to ensure it had currency. Tina makes no mention of bundled packages, just that there were small packages held together by bank bands i.e. the individual packets. Al Lee's secretary said there were no rubber banded packs. I just want PRE-Tena Bar evidence of the bundling. Again, my assumption was and STILL is that the money on Tena Bar was discovered in the same assembly as it was given to Cooper that day. However, I'd still like to see some pre-Tena Bar evidence of bundling or rubber banding.

So I decided to go down a rabbit hole a few days ago because someone on the Facebook group asked about "ransom packs", so I just began doing a deep dive into what was actually mentioned in the 302's regarding the ransom money. While compiling all the 302's regarding Seattle-First National Bank and the money, I noticed the complete absence of a term: "rubber bands" or "bundled" occurring before Tena Bar. You'll see Himmelsbach and others quoted in articles post-Tena Bar talking about how they bundled the money together with rubber bands to make it look hastily gathered. However, we have an issue here...there's no evidence the FBI ever handled the money. Let's follow the money via the 302's: - We have a detective at Seattle PD saying that around 4:45 he was informed of an extortion in progress and that he took an unmarked police car to Sea-First and picked up bank officials with the money. He then drove to the airport, getting there around 5. He says that these bank officials then handed the money off at the NWA office to (presumably) Al Lee. - We have a 302 that is seemingly coming from Agent Milnes himself, describing being in the NWA office when a leather satchel was brought into the office, a seal was broken, and the money bag was removed. Milnes says he inspected the bag and determined that it did have currency in it. He makes no mention of handling the money whatsoever. He then says the money was handed to Al Lee. We of course know that Al Lee pretty promptly met the plane on the runway pretty much immediately after it taxied to its location. So when was the FBI doing this "bundling" with rubber bands to give the appearance that the money was hastily gathered?? Let's also remember that Nyrop specifically asked law enforcement to stay out of the money exchange. This was just between his airline and the hijacker. The next thing: the lack of mention of rubber bands. There is no mention of rubber bands but we DO have is mention of "bank bands" i.e. currency straps. We have a 302 from a bank official (the manager of Sea-First, presumably) stating that the money was made up of packets of 100 $20 bills banded together with Sea-First or Fed Reserve bank bands. We also have Tina describing Cooper as having "small packages" that had "bank type bands". No mention of bundles or rubber bands anywhere. Furthermore, Nicky Broughton recently came across Al Lee's secretary stating online that Cooper's money bag was on her desk. Nicky reached out and asked if she remembered any rubber bands on the money and she said she did not. So what gives? Obviously absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, so perhaps the bank officials or Tina just didn't ever comment on the rubber bands. However, I do think it is something to look into. If someone has PRE-Tena Bar evidence that there were rubber bands on the money, please by all means let us know. RansomPack.pdf

100% correct.

So we had made a faulty assumption that the Egg Harbor guy from the DNA 302 was the same Egg Harbor guy mentioned in those previous 302's, but we were wrong. Different guy. This guy worked for Japan Airlines and was old enough to have served in the "U.S. Air Corps" (a WWII guy). So it's not Catalano.

witness Robert Gregory if we're being precise.

his FBI files confirms this.

Not a lot of meet on that bone. Makes me wonder why they chose him for DNA. Langseth? Sure.