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On CNN last night he said that we can see them after the audit. Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

In Alaska? To cheer the new gun owner and her family, uncles etc. ? Speaking of lame. . . Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

Sarcasm tends to be a bit more subtle with elements of wit and humor. This was just lame. Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

I'm assuming we were both in the midst of the northeast blackout of 2003. It's was pretty chaotic in downtown Detroit - and tho that was nothing compared to what we were actually talking about, I learned a valuable lesson that day - to never be left that vulnerable again. I talked about this awhile back in this thread: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4722620;search_string=northeast%20blackout;#4722620 This is the same thread where you basically dismissed Ron as paranoid when expressing his concern about the vulnerabilities of our border given the reality of recent attacks - yet here you are propagating a hypothetical cyber attack that even quade doesn't believe is actually going to happen even if the backdoor is mandated. If you're going to be honest, then you have to admit that we weren't talking about a mere power outage nor a breakdown of society. We were talking about something more or less in the middle of that. It pretty much comes back to what Rehmwa said: "people are people and they have the exact same fears and concerns - yet they are berated or cheered based solely on stupid social/political alignments" I'll admit that I'm guilty of that at times as well. Ulitmately the point here is that in court, Apple shouldn't focus on the idea that they're trying to protect people from some hypothetical cyber attack, when the feds are already arguing that they're trying to protect the people from an imminent threat that actually exists right now - the effects of which we have already experienced. Apple's angle should be strictly about limiting government intrusion into their business as well as the private lives of their customers. Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

...and if that guns kills a rapist in self defense, you guessed it - woot woot! Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

Me neither I suppose, (tho my family and I don't mind showing off our arsenal to each other) but it's amazing how people are so easily offended by it. I don't understand having 1000 friends and a lot of other bullshit people do to get attention on social media, but who gives a shit, right? - It's social media. I don't understand that either - who gives a shit what I use other than for a review? (which I still wouldn't give, not even anonymously - i just don't want to give someone advice that may lead to their death - it's a personal thing.) Why brag? But people brag about all sorts of shit - I don't understand it, but who cares...it's social media. That's fine, you just don't understand....and while you say that guns may be made for killing, the majority are not used to kill anything. I can see that... Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

...the logical conclusion of which, is to have an offspring that also has nothing. Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

I wish I could see all the hoplophobic frustration in their faces every time they hear someone boasting about a gun... I reckon it would look something like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRUSfXEwNsU Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

Sad but true - exaggeration is the only language the public understands anymore. It's pretty much the case with every issue on both sides of the isle. The latest example of this is with the Apple backdoor situation. Nobody cares that it's simply about our privacy and limiting an overreaching government - so they have to start making shit up about how the Chinese are going to attack our water supply and kill the power - it'll cost trillions of dollars and untold deaths! We need to build a firewall and make America safe again! Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

Actually, what happened was that when you started to recognize your own hypocrisy and how close your paranoia on the issue started to resemble that of a christian prepper, you started to backpedal. Your massive cyber attack of "untold deaths" that knocked out every big city's water/power supply, costing trillions of dollars because of one single compromised iphone, all of a sudden becomes a mere "power outage" that couldn't possibly resemble something that a prepper would actually prepare for. Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

Well, prophecy never was an exact science. Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

But Trump knows: www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2016-35648058 "You know what I really am happy about, because I've been saying it for a long time," Trump told supporters in his victory speech early Wednesday. "46 percent with the Hispanics ... number one with Hispanics!" Despite the apparently impressive result, Hispanic voters only made up 8 percent of Republican caucus-goers in Nevada. By contrast, 19 percent of caucus-goers in Saturday's Democratic contest were Hispanic. Source: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2016/02/24/nevada-entrance-polls-show-trump-winner-among-hispanics.html I just caught a snippet of this on TV. At 4:40 he says, "we won the evanglicals, we won with young, we won with old, we won with the highly educated, we won with the POORLY EDUCATED...I LOVE the poorly educated!" Whats with all the emphasis on the poorly educated, huh? Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

What a load of bullshit. A "massive attack" on cities electrical systems would result in a "power outage". I was indicating that this massive attack on cities leading to power outages is not the same as a complete breakdown in society which preppers seem to concern themselves with. You were the one trying to equate the two as being similar to make your argument work. Yet I am the one "moving the goalposts". Like I said, what a load of bullshit. We were talking about a cyber attack that killed the power to every major city across the country including Washington D.C for who knows how long - that subsequently lead to "untold deaths" and cost "trillions" of dollars due to a single compromised iphone. Now maybe you don't see that as a breakdown of society - whatever, who cares? Besides you don't need to believe in a "complete breakdown" to be a prepper prepared to live off the land and provide for yourself when the time comes - neither do you need to believe that the country is being lead by a "socialist Muslim Kenyan" What a load of bullshit. . . Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

No - I wasn't contesting the cost. I was simply pointing out how the goal posts seemed to have mysteriously Backpedaled. Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

Though I'm skeptical of hitting all those cities at once, I am familiar with the threat along with the possibility of an EMP attack. That's why in the past I've stressed the importance of guns and having the ability to provide for yourself and live off the land. But when Ron and I talk about that stuff, we're just dismissed as a bunch of paranoid christian prepper nutcases by the same people putting their hope in Apple to protect them. . . Because engineering a power outage and a complete breakdown of society are two separate issues. Oh, now it's just a "power outage." Just a little while ago it was a massive attack against all the big cities across the country that could "cost trillions" - where one "compromised phone could lead to untold deaths" Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

Though I'm skeptical of hitting all those cities at once, I am familiar with the threat along with the possibility of an EMP attack. That's why in the past I've stressed the importance of guns and having the ability to provide for yourself and live off the land. But when Ron and I talk about that stuff, we're just dismissed as a bunch of paranoid christian prepper nutcases by the same people putting their hope in Apple to protect them. . . Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

We're gonna build a firewall and make america safe again! Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

One reporter's ignorance of such things doesn't invalidate the argument. pffft, talk about ignorance - He's more than just a reporter, he's "the founder of Red Tiger Security and a 17-year veteran of the critical infrastructure industry. As an ‘ethical hacker,’ he consults for some of the world’s largest energy companies, as well as electric utilities, chemical plants, water treatment plants, etc. to help them better defend against cyber attacks. He’s presented workshops on SCADA security to the FBI, DHS and Utility Telecom Council." How about posting articles that actually support your argument? Or do you just know more than the experts? Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

And what makes you think ISIS isn't also attempting to hack into US infrastructure? http://www.businessinsider.com/isis-and-hacking-us-power-grid-2015-10?op=1 I mean, seriously, it's almost like you have no clue whatsoever what you're talking about. Sez the guy who posts articles that directly contradict his own wild-eyed musings. . . Quade: "The right cascade of failures inserted into the electrical grid could end up shutting down power for the entire country." From Your Article: "The likeliest outcome of a cyberattack against US infrastructure, Pollet contends, is "localized disruptions in service — not a widespread outage." "It would be extremely difficult for hackers, without an almost superhuman effort, to cause a power outage that stretched across the country" Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

I'm just saying that the Feds already have a lock on the whole "we're trying to save lives" approach. You can't beat them with an appeal to the future about some other (hypothetical) threat that may or may not be more serious. For Apple, and those sympathetic to their cause, this is not about whether or not we are saving lives. It's about privacy and an overreaching government - how far can they can go vs. how far should they go - and the precedent that it may set. No, your example was hypothetical. ...and if you're so concerned with hypothetical chineese threats, then fine - that's your prerogative - but just remember that people have been berated and deemed xenophobic bigots for expressing their concern about legitimate Islamic extremist threats that actually exist. Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

Ya, see - there's that CP shit again. That's your answer for everything, isn't it? "You don't know wtf you're talking about man, so butt out!" Ya, that much is obvious given that you can't even explain it without some sensationalist nonsense that you guys don't even believe yourself. My point was that Quade had a great answer without all the other hypothetical BS that detracted from an otherwise great post. Those types of condescending hypothetical arguments aren't going to win it for Apple in court because the opposition's real sensationalist bullshit trumps Quade's hypothetical sensationalist bullshit. Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

...and I already addressed his hypothetical situation. How is anybody else gonna buy it when he doesn't even believe it himself? Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

Explain to me how that happens by accessing a stolen iphone and entering millions of passwords until it unlocks. Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

Shall I do the "for want of a nail the war was lost" scenario? Certainly you must be familiar with the concept. If not; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/For_Want_of_a_Nail Hey, you know that virus Stuxnet? No? Maybe you should read about that. I'll wait. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuxnet I can tell you this for certain, we're safer with strong encryption than without it. See, this is what I was trying to get to - the reply above would've been a good answer without being swept away by all the other sensationalized nonsense that only detracts from an otherwise suffice response. Futhermore, if you're going to use hypothetical Chinese cyber attacks to make your case, then perhaps you should stop marginalizing the actual terrorist threat in this country. Do you really think hypothetical situations are going to help further your cause against those that are making their case using a threat that actually exists today? I mean seriously, if some paranoid conservative southern christian was rambling on about how "the chinamen is gonna steals ours light switches and turns off our lectricities" - you'd be laughing at him. Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

I can agree with the general sentiment of your post, but what would be the anticipated death toll of such a "disaster?" Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour