Coreeece

"A gathering of angels appeared above my head. . ." https://youtu.be/9TcztyNlFx0?t=147 Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

I thought ALL Brits have bad teeth. What are you referring to It's glaringly obvious - you're more interested in entertaining stereotypes and singling out groups of people that you don't like, rather than actually having a concern for "the children." Turtle simply responded accordingly. Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

Well we were talking about the bible, so I beg to differ. You didn't ask about an omniscient, omnipotent creator - you asked why penguins die. . . Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

What does that mean? What do you think it means given Kallend's question and it's relation to the selected verses that I've posted? Absolutely no idea. Really? That's surprising. Well to be fair, it wasn't abundantly clear to me at first either. In those instances I'll go back to the original language and look up the verse in an interlinear greek bible to see if it offers any clarification. I'll also look up the verse using several different translations to see if that helps: Romans 8:20 New Living Translation "Against its will, all creation was subjected to God's curse. But with eager hope," King James Bible "For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope," New International Version "For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope" I'll then take my thoughts and compare them to several commentaries like the one below to see if we're all on the same page. http://versebyversecommentary.com/romans/romans-820/ Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

What does that mean? What do you think it means given Kallend's question and it's relation to the selected verses that I've posted? Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

Why do dogs die? And penguins? Are they sinful too? The only thing scripture says about it is that creation was unwillingly subjected to futility - and that even the ground is cursed because of our sin. (Romans 8:19 -22 , Gen 3:17) Given the law of entropy, I suppose we could even say that the entire universe is cursed. Perhaps it's merely a byproduct of sin. I always found it interesting how people call things immortal when they're not really immortal - like vampires. Vampires are considered immortal, yet they can be killed by either a stake through the heart, or cutting off their head and setting it on fire - likewise, HeLa cells don't die because the conditions suitable for "immortality" are maintained by scientists. Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

In Jn 17:8 it speaks about how He gave them the word - they accepted it as truth, and believed. Likewise, people in the future believed through the word given by other believers - How do you have spiritual life if you don't believe? But we get born with loads of instincts that according to the bible aren't meant to be followed. Most men get born with the instinct to try and have sex with anything and everything vaguely woman shaped, but apparently we're only supposed to have one. Some men get born with the instinct to try and have sex with everything man shaped, but the book says that's definitely a no-go. The instinct we have as kids to just take the stuff we want (and hurt the people who try and stop us taking it) has to be painstakingly drummed out of us by society, and the bible agrees with society on that one. A lot of your colleagues say that these instincts are actually implanted as a result of a snake and an apple being sneaky together, and are therefore definitely bad things to be ignored. So yeah, biblically speaking, appealing to instinct is a really bad argument. Yeah, duh - that's a good point. According to scripture, we die because of sin - so then the idea of survival would be a derivative of our fallen nature. I could certainly spend more time in study - but at the moment, I doubt I could offer much more than the little that I've already posted. Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

You didn't ask why it's important, you asked why it's biblical to maintain this fleeting existence - so I gave you scripture showing how the spiritual well being of future believers will depend on our word about Christ. To me, that IS important - and I would say it's important to Christ given that it was like his last prayer with his followers before he was arrested and killed. There's a common misconception that "Jesus taking the wheel" or "letting go and letting God" is a biblical concept. I felt the need to note that it wasn't. My apologies for not effectively communicating that point. I don't see how it really matters tho - your question still stands regardless - why do we cling to this fleeting existence? I tried answering that question as best I could in post #92 - If I were to add something, I'd say that if it wasn't important we wouldn't have been born with the instinct to survive and could've forgone this period of existence altogether - but that's just not the way it is. Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

***someone pedantically pointing out any slight problem in their developement and saying we shoud just stick with horse & buggies. Damn greenies. . . Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

So? So what? Jn 17 - it's pretty clear. What's so great about saving someone's life? It's not like you're doing them a favour, is it? I suppose it would depend on the individual that you're attempting to save. Oh, very true. Kinda doubt you meant it in the way I'm reading it though... Tho all things may be premissable, not all things are beneficial. What spiritual benefit could possibly come by way of reckless driving? 1 Corinthians 10:23 "I have the right to do anything," you say--but not everything is beneficial. "I have the right to do anything"--but not everything is constructive. Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

But people are taken out of the world all the time. Everyone leaves the world sooner or later - and in the context of eternity sooner isn't any sooner than later anyway. But collectively, if we were all taken from the world or chose to drink kool-aid in hopes of experiencing the finer things of eternal life, there wouldn't be anyone here to evangelize future believers as stated in Jn 17:20 that I posted. Earlier on in the thread, I think Ron posted Luke 22:36 about buying a sword. I could be wrong, but I'd imagine that buying a sword might have something to do with trying not to die. ...but to your point, there's probably more verses about sacrificing your life for another person, rather than trying to save your own arse or way of life. (just to be clear - IMO, I don't think sacrificing your life for someone else necessarily has to mean physical death.) Also, just because something isn't biblical, doesn't necessarily mean that it's wrong. What's more important is whether or not it's contrary to scripture. Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

Wait, you didn't say it was about faith, you said it wasn't biblical. Why is it biblical to care about maintaining this fleeting existence when the same awesome thing will happen to you after you die whether it's now or in 50 years? Well it still all comes down to faith - you'd still have to believe that that awesome thing is gonna happen to you after you die. Personally tho, I think that's a rather self-centered perspective to have as a believer - "to hell with this world and these people - I can taste their stink! I'm just gonna checkout now and take all that's been promised!" But since you asked, biblically, it's not really about the individual. Christ prayed that we are not to be taken out of this world. That he has sent us into the world, just as He was sent into the world. John 17:15 I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one. John 17:18 As you sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. John 17:20 I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word. The entire chapter of John 17 linked below should offer more insight if anyone cares: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+17 Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

Why isn't it? I don't understand why people talk about life and afterlife. If what happens after you die on earth lasts forever, that is your existence. That is your life, not this. This is but the briefest prelude so why does anyone even care about it? It wouldn't be life and afterlife it would be teaser trailer and life. I can't remember ever using that term, and I know I haven't ever used it in this forum. A quick search seemed to reveal that the majority of those that used the term in this forum appeared to be atheists/non-religious. Even Marinus at one time was rambling on about how an atheist can still believe in an afterlife. I don't think the term is even used in scripture. It just refers to it as either "life" or "eternal life." But I understand what you're getting at. It seems today that most Christians don't have an eternal perspective on life. From my memory, it often seemed to be a topic of discussion/sermons at church. When I first became a christian 10 years ago, I seemed to have had this fearless confidence in my faith and took extraordinary risks - but back then in my 20's I didn't have anyone that depended on me as I do now. ...but put simply, a lack of an eternal perspective is merely a lack of faith. Eternal life is a spiritual concept, and as I noted earlier, "the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other" When Christ's followers fell sleep rather than stay up and pray, He explained that "The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak" - likewise, we tend to focus more on the physical aspects of this world rather than having a spiritual, eternal perspective. Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

I suppose you'd know - you're the republican, not me. I get quite a laugh at the inaccurate labels that are thrown at me in here. If anybody inaccurately labeled you as a republican, it was you. Normiss: "Most of my voting age experience has been as a registered Republican" http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4778822;search_string=republican;#4778822 Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

I suppose you'd know - you're the republican, not me. Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

...or we can just have a door that says "penises" and a door that says "vaginas" - problem solved. Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

When, where? That's fine, and we can discuss it - but what Kallend did was completely dismiss a concept without any explanation or interpretation. Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

lol, Probably - but at least I gave a shit about her feelings or at least tried to understand - rather than just doing it because "I can," in an attempt to make some arrogant point about sexual acceptance without any regard to how others may feel about it - fuck them, right? Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

I'm just trying to fathom the cost of lowering all trough-style urinals to meet unisex specifications - what a nightmare. . . But seriously, having to travel with my disabled fiancee (I'm just going to call her my wife from now on, ok? Because that's what she is - whether legal or not, I don't care. I've proven to be with her in sickness and in health, so that gotta count for something, right?) ...anyway, having to travel with my disabled wife, I like the idea of having unisex restrooms. There were many times when I simply had to help her into the ladies room. There were many females in there at times, and tho they seemed gracious and understanding, I still felt a bit sensitive to the awkwardness that they may have been feeling. I mean seriously, I'm listening to this lady pissing hard in the stall next to me and I can't help to think what she may be feeling. Is she embarrassed that it sounds like an elephant taking a dump by a waterfall? What if she had gas? I would imagine that would be very uncomfortable for her, right? women are sensitive about those things. But whatever, have it your way - we'll all come around at some point, I'm sure. I have to admit that I do like the idea of being able to check in on my step-daughter if I see some creepy pervos lurking around the ladies restroom - and trust me, I've seen a few - especially in California. . . Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

Are you saying it's not? I can't speak to the mental state of Constantine - whether or not his intentions were sincere, I couldn't possibly know - but if there was some type of tinfoil conspiracy to control the minds of men I would expect there to be some evidence. Even if you believe Constantine and others like him had sinister motives to use religion for self serving purposes, the scripture they used was written hundreds of years prior to their term in power, so it couldn't have possibly be written for that purpose. Also, whether you've experienced it or not, christian scripture is rather quite liberating. It's really not the ideal literature you'd want to use to control the masses - which is ultimately why the Catholic Church created it's own doctrine that's in complete opposition to scripture - such as indulgences, that ultimately convinced their parishioners to pay a monetary sum in order to bring their loved ones out of purgatory - yet another anti-biblical doctrine. Up until recently, the Catholic church discouraged reading scripture - only the priests could possibly understand. They even held services in Latin so that nobody knew wtf they were talking about. Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

I think the difference between the law and grace has been explained ad nauseam in this forum and throughout the entire interweb for the last 20 years. There are also plenty of examples within scripture itself that explain it rather clearly. I suppose the only reason why one would still appear to be in the dark on the issue, would be that they are either looking for reasons to justify their disbelief, or to ridicule those that actually do believe. Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

What does that mean, "God's house?" A church is no different than any other building. I thought the whole idea was that the spirit of God lived within us. The idea of "God's House" is taught by the catholics - that God dwells in the tabernacle in the form of a wheat flour wafer - it doesn't make sense to me, but I understand why they believe it. The idea was hijacked from Judaism - it was believed that God dwelt in the Holy of Holies. Christian scripture clearly explains why that's no longer the case. ...but anyway, to answer your question - we believe the wage of sin is death. As christians, we understand our sinfulness and know that we will die one way or another. I suppose we still fear the uncertainties of death like most people and will protect our lives in whatever way we can. I suppose it's similar to the same reason why I don't close my eyes and reach to the heavens singing "Jesus take the wheel" while driving 193kmh down the the bloody motorway - it's not biblical. Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

Because it doesn't make sense. It's not important whether the concepts of any particular religion make sense or not. What's important is that you understand that's what people believe. You're not gonna get anywhere by simply dismissing them. Tho the concept in question doesn't make sense to him, I'm pretty sure that kallend - given his 12 years of extensive biblical study - understands that's what people actually believe. But rather than illustrating why it doesn't make any sense, he simply dismisses it as contradictory without any further explanation - because he can't. His 12 years of extensive bible study should've reminded him that if Christ saved himself, it would've contradicted everything He was trying to teach in the first place - and probably even nullify the religion altogether. Now that may not make sense to you, but if we're gonna have a discussion about biblical concepts, why not treat it like any other literary discourse and look at what the words actually say, rather than what we think it should say? Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

Yeah, nobody has a problem with the part when Jesus says that he who is without sin cast the first stone, and then decides not to condemn the adulterer. . . . . .but when he said "Go now and leave your life of sin," that's enough to label you as a bigot these days. Most Christians do understand life that way - but at the same time, they shouldn't feel compelled to condone sinful behavior. Btw, if you're going to condemn Christianity as a bunch of "bullshit created by man to control others," then why are you using it in an attempt to conform others to the likeness of your worldview? Kinda hypocritical, don't ya think? Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

My bad - I was under the impression that you had basic understanding of that which you so arrogantly mock. Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour