3ringheathen

As it is written “There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.” Romans 3:10-12 Yet another example of biblical errancy. -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

1) There are an awful lot of Catholics out there. 2) Catholic schools tend to be very good overall. I'm willing to bet that, on average, Catholic school students score higher on tests that are not related to religion than their counterparts at other religiously based educational institutions. So aside from the indoctrination, students still learn basic logic, and critical thinking skills. It's not surprising that more Catholics dare to question the status quo and reject religion. I would agree with you aside from the fact that there were many others who actually saw what happened and recorded what they saw. None of the other sources you mentioned have the specificities that the Bible has or can credibly make those claims of truth. As for ancient works, it is in a class of its own. Yes, it's in a class of it's own. No othe ancient work has so many blatant instances of plagiarism in it. Next you'll be telling me that Vanilla Ice never listened to David Bowie. Right.... de dune dune dune de dune dune... No, not at all. I tentatively accept such claims, because there's nothing unbelievable about them. If the same people were telling me that someone had landed a wingsuit, I'd be pretty skeptical, no matter how emphatic they were. There's evidence of some of the mundane things mentioned in the bible, but there is no historical evidence for the remarkable claims in the bible! Give me one specific claim of a miraculous nature, and a sample of the "evidence". We'll go from there. I think you just said that those that don't interpret the bible the way you do aren't really Christians. That speaks volumes if true. If not, please clarify your last statement, as it leaves me more than a little confused. -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

The question you were posed deals with a truely selfless person, someone who does good deeds for others just because they want to help, yet happens not to believe in god. There's a huge difference there. Such people most certainly do exist. I didn't say anything about a perfect person, someone without sin. I simply described a basically decent person that doesn't believe in God. The question was: How could a just, all knowing, loving god punish such a person? Especially if people with decidedly poorer track records in life are rewarded simply because they believe in God? It's absurd. -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

I agree that the above traits, particularly intelligence, are correlated with low religiosity. This community probably isn't a representative sample of the general population. There are loads of intelligent religious people, and from what I've read, I would include you in that category. I suspect that your basic religious beliefs were formed before you were old enough to really think about them. This is true for the vast majority of us, including myself. I was raised Catholic, and went to Catholic school. This deserves a thread of it's own.

There is also plenty of evidence that Christianity is simply an amalgam of religions and mythos that came before it. A borgreligion or frankenrelgion if you will. Multiple people telling you something is true doesn't necessarily strengthen the case at all. It might be reason to explore the belief further, but it's certainly no reason to believe it. If the bridge was high enough I probably would jump off of it. I can easily imagine a crowd of people on a bridge panicking as it bucks and sways in high wind. They could all be screaming to jump or run. I'd probably be far more afraid of the crowd trampling me in their panic, than I would be concerned that the bridge would actually collapse. I wrote: "Such thinking has played a vital role in perpetuating all sorts of unsavory things in society. Things that are completely incompatible with an all knowing, loving and compassionate creator. The irrational bias against homosexuality is just the latest social injustice to be questioned. It's long overdue for a supposedly modern civilization." I don't speak for God. I don't believe in God. Perhaps you should ask yourself that question, since it is you that claim to know what God wants of us. You point to the bible as the basis for your beliefs, yet others do the exactly the same thing and yet believe contradictory things. Finally, your parable reasonably explains why a father might reward the lost son for returning, but it does nothing to explain why a better son that didn't believe in God might be punished! -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

Then how can you reject his studies outright and publish your negative sentiments concerning his works or his character to the world? ***Which brings me back to the point of my earlier post: If one reads the book reviews at amazon.com, you'll find readers repeating all of his blatantly flawed arguments in the reviews themselves. It's quite plain that McDowell eschues logic in favor of arguments from authority and other flawed techniques. Over the years, I've invested *enormous* amounts of time investigating various claims surrounding religions, mostly Christianity. After all, it's prevalent in my society. Sound logic, valid evidence, and legitimate research supporting your position are as elusive as Bigfoot or the Lochness monster. Without exception I've been disapointed in my quest for a sensible argument in favor of Christianity, particularly your brand of it. I've tried very hard to maintain an open mind, but fundamentalist apologists keep trying to dump garbage in it. I've wondered how come I haven't seen the light. Over and over again it turns out that their isn't even a light bulb in the biblical socket. McDowells approach is severely flawed, and nearly identical to that of countless others before him. If it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck, at some point you get tired of double checking and make the reasonable assumption that it's probably a freaking duck!*** It just doesn’t fit your brand of logic, apparently. Only God can turn the light bulb on in your head and bring about wisdom instead of just knowledge. Logic doesn't come in different brands. Logic is a formal system of reasoning. Starting with different basic assumptions, you and I can each employ logic properly to reach different conclusions. Our arguments would be said to be internally consistent, which is the most one can really hope for. The trouble is that none of the authors I mentioned achieve internal consistency because they don't actually employ sound logic to reach their conclusions. As for God turning on the light bulb, near as I can tell, God only enters ones heart when he or she turns the light off. -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

That's an ironic question to pose considering that the bulk of your arguments involve citing the works of others, but I digress. I made a separate post in which I addressed some of my personal concerns about the topic. You've so far ignored it, even though it appears directly above the post of mine that you did respond to. No, I haven't read McDowells books. Which brings me back to the point of my earlier post: If one reads the book reviews at amazon.com, you'll find readers repeating all of his blatantly flawed arguments in the reviews themselves. It's quite plain that McDowell eschues logic in favor of arguments from authority and other flawed techniques. Over the years, I've invested *enormous* amounts of time investigating various claims surrounding religions, mostly Christianity. After all, it's prevalent in my society. Sound logic, valid evidence, and legitimate research supporting your position are as elusive as Bigfoot or the Lochness monster. Without exception I've been disapointed in my quest for a sensible argument in favor of Christianity, particularly your brand of it. I've tried very hard to maintain an open mind, but fundamentalist apologists keep trying to dump garbage in it. I've wondered how come I haven't seen the light. Over and over again it turns out that their isn't even a light bulb in the biblical socket. McDowells approach is severely flawed, and nearly identical to that of countless others before him. If it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck, at some point you get tired of double checking and make the reasonable assumption that it's probably a freaking duck! -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

I only did tandems for one summer, but I've been doing tandem vids for years. I've seen a lot of flips, intentional and otherwise. Do a flip or two on exit, assuming that the instructor and student are both comfortable with the idea, of course. In my brief stint as a TM, I found that a significant portion of 1st jumpers brain lock for the first few seconds after exit. It's instinctive to go fetal, and as often as not, that's what they'll do. The instructor can often help them into an arch, or exit stable without the students help, but not always. I think planning flips on exit can help enhance the experience and *maybe* even be safer than attempting a stable exit. 1) Balling up is natural, so the student is much more likely to actually perform as instructed. 2) The student doesn't feel like they failed if they don't exit in a perfect arch. 3) The sensory overload usually subsides shortly after exit. If the student is expecting to flip, and then arch when the instructor does, they are usually with it enough to do so. 4) When a student is particularly nervous, screwing up the exit aggravates it. A truly panicked student is the hardest to deal with. If they expected to flip, which is easy, they are less likely to panic. As for the suggestion that premature drogue release is a concern, I agree, but a properly stowed drogue should be just fine in the airstream. Thorough gear checks and maintenance are a better solution to that problem than avoiding flips on exit! My .02 -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

Actually, I picked the 2nd negative review listed, as it nicely sums up my sentiments. I readily admit that there are more positive reviews than negative ones, but as anyone over the age of thirteen knows, quantity does not equal quality. -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

You sound like a Democrat. Thank you. -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

Yikes. Citing Josh McDowell is a bit like citing Pinochio, except his deceptions aren't as easily identified. For those that aren't familiar with this author, simply check out reviews of his books on Amazon.com. If you're still curious, go to the library, but whatever you do, don't subsidize this crackpot by purchasing one of his books! I recommend reading a sampling of the positive and negative reviews. The average lucidity of each ought to give you an idea of how hopeless it is to reason with his followers. A sample: This book is a complete and utter waste of time if you are looking for objective scholarship, honest historical research from a learned scholar. This author is nothing more than a promoter who operates under the guise of scholarship. His arguments - evidence is specious and he commits virtually every logical fallacy one can commit. -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

The above quotes are contradictory. A simple acknowledgement that we can't know everything would be more appropriate, but it's also a radically different idea. Saying "we're not meant to know and understand everything" goes hand in hand with blindly accepting things as true without thinking about and investigating them. Such thinking has played a vital role in perpetuating all sorts of unsavory things in society. Things that are completely incompatible with an all knowing, loving and compassionate creator. The irrational bias against homosexuality is just the latest social injustice to be questioned. It's long overdue for a supposedly modern civilization. Following this logic: Suppose that Vallerina is an extraordinarily good, kind person. She sins far less than you do. She sacrifices more to help others than you do. In her heart she regrets every mistake she's ever made, and strives to avoid repeating them. She does all this because she simply believes it is the right thing to do. She doesn't believe in god, heaven, hell, and so forth. In your God's eyes, she is not righteous. You will be rewarded in the afterlife, and she will not. Simply because you have faith, never mind that, for the sake of argument at the very least, she led a better life than you. Frankly, I find this concept appalling. Such a hypothetical deity would not be worthy of worship, but rather contempt. -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

Elephants are the only LAND animals that can't jump. Kelly What about caucasians? -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

Sure you do. You think being heterosexual gives you privileges and protections not afforded to gays. -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

Hmmm... that assertion is in direct conflict with the following quote from the same webpage I previously referenced: Judging by: the increasing numbers of malpractice suits against MPD specialists, the increasing numbers of cancellations of MPD therapists' licenses to practice, the recent drop in membership of their professional organization, the International Society for the Study of Dissociation (ISSD), the decreasing numbers of books on MPD/DID therapeutic methods, the closing of all 28 MPD/DID specialist clinics in North America, the skeptics appear to be gaining acceptance in society. At any rate, I'm not claiming to be especially well qualified to debate the issue, and a duel of web links accomplishes little. Note that I don't dismiss MPD entirely, but I think it's a good bet that the vast majority of cases can be attributed to malingering of sorts, or inept therapists. -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

QuoteIn a City Where Nobody’s Been Popped, Lately . . . “Getting arrested for BASE jumping is liner to your location and proportional to what’s going-on there. Sometimes, if the heats off, everybody shakes their heads and laughs and you walk with a hand slap, unless they see you again.” That’s something I wrote 14 years ago, but that was before the war . . . Quote Would that be before the war on terror, or before the war on personal freedom? I ask because it seems to me that as a nation, we are winning the latter, and thereby losing the former. -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

Er? How do you define a "real Oregon jumper"? -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

Perfectly reasonable questions. Here's my take on them: 1) Military gear is designed with different priorities in mind than sport/student gear. Whether it's getting the soldier to the ground as fast as possible while still survivable (think hard landing), or jumping with tons of extra gear such as weapons, ammunition, rations, etc, military gear is custom tailored to different goals than sport gear. In the early days of skydiving, everyone jumped surplus military gear, but it's been a few decades since the flow was in that direction. Nowadays, advances in sport skydiving equipment tend to make their way into military gear, not the other way around. 2) In the decade I've been jumping, very few of the accidents were attributable to specific gear designs. Most were jumper error. Someone correct me if I'm wrong...I believe the type of gear involved in fatalities is included in formal reports sent to USPA and similar organizations. If the gear appears to be a factor, it is published, other wise, it's not mentioned. -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

Why not just have an established landing pattern for no wind/light and variable? At my dz, the prevailing wind is out of the west. Therefore, when the wind sock is limp, everyone lands to the west. No sign needed. It's standard practice, and it's what people are most familiar with anyways. -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

It's pretty much bogus, here's a quote from the first link that popped up when I did a search on it: "Most professional therapists believe that it is an iatrogenic (physician induced) disorder that either does not appear naturally, or is almost non-existent. However, belief in MPD/DID is still commonly found among conservative Christian counselors, perhaps because it meshes so well with their concept of Satan, demons, and demonic possession." This quote is consistent with what I recall my abnormal psych professor telling me roughly 8 years ago. I'd go a step further and note that a lot of "therapists" that diagnose this disorder aren't medically trained or otherwise particularly well qualified to be counselors. http://www.religioustolerance.org/mpd_did1.htm -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

It's really expensive to set up the initial molds and production. If they only made 1000 dolls, the average cost is going to be high. OTOH, if it turns out that millions are sold, then the price would drop considerably. How many of these things do you expect they might sell? -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

Hmmm. I wish they'd given me that when I had my burns debrided. The mind is strange. I ended up in a dissociative state all by myself, but it was induced by the intense pain. That's a little too late in my book. -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

Often times, night is simply more practical, even if you have permission. The winds tend to be much calmer, and there's very little traffic or pedestrians to worry about. Most likely I'd still run away because historically, the knee jerk reaction of authorities is to arrest you and charge you with whatever they can think of. So hypothetically, I've got permission to be on the 30th floor of a building in the middle of the city. I jump late at night and get busted. Trespassing? No, I had permission. Wreckless endangerment? I'd almost certainly be found not guilty, but it's much easier to make a quick exit and avoid the hassle! -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

Me too. My lawyer is drafting a letter ordering you to replace yours with something different. What's your mailing address? My favorite is Carina's: Cutaway = Dirty Reserve = Hooker -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

I remember the waiver process there, including being video'd, but I don't recall any discussion of hand signals or the truck. -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.